[EM] Poll Ballot, from Richard

Thu Jul 18 17:05:41 PDT 2024

Best would be to ask Richard whether he prefers alphabetical, random, or
dividing the one vote equally among them.

My first impression is that he doesn’t want any ordering.

Richard: What do you prefer?

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 14:44 Chris Benham <cbenhamau at yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
> What about just dividing that person’s vote equally among all those s/he
> equal-ranks?
>
>
> That is logical and I suppose acceptable for this poll, but I do like it
> better with the extra step I suggested.
>
> Better than throwing the ballot out.
>
>
> Since we are using the same ballots for different methods, yes.  In a
> real-life serious Hare election I'd be content (assuming it's possible to
> strictly rank all the candidates) to just consider equal-ranked candidates
> and any ranked below them to be truncated.
>
> In Australia the whole ballot  would be classified as "informal" and not
> counted towards the result.
>
>
> On 19/07/2024 6:30 am, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 23:15 Chris Benham <cbenhamau at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> I assume in the party-PR poll we are just supposed to give our favourite.
>> Is that correct?
>>
>
> Yes, just indicate favorite party.
> ———
> For a real public political election by RCV,  sure. I’d change my last
> name to Aardvark.
>
> What about just dividing that person’s vote equally among all those s/he
> equal-ranks?
>
> Disadvantages to what the voter might have wanted, but that rule would be
> stated in advance.
>
> Better than throwing the ballot out.
>
>
>
>>
>> On 18/07/2024 3:01 pm, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
>>
>>
>> I forgot to mention: RCV & STV don’t allow equa-ranking (though Condorcet
>> does).
>>
>> However I wouldn’t call an RCV or STV ballot “spoiled” if it has
>> equal-ranking. I’d instead just rank any equal-ranked candidates, at some
>> particular rank-position, *in alphabetical-order by last-name*
>>
>> I figure the voter won’t mind, because he doesn’t have any preference
>> among them.
>>
>> Is that okay?
>>
>> Of course, for the RP(wv) count your equal-ranked candidates will be
>> counted as equal-ranked, because equal-ranking is permissible in Condorcet.
>>
>> Additional answers inline below:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 16:55 Richard, the VoteFair guy <
>> electionmethods at votefair.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Michael, here is my ballot.
>>>
>>> You can translate this into your desired ballot format.
>>>
>>> If you claim you need a full ranking, then I choose not to vote in this
>>> poll.  That's because I don't have time to research unfamiliar
>>> candidates and unfamiliar parties.
>>>
>>> In the candidate poll my ballot is that I rank Biden as the only
>>> "approved" candidate
>>
>>
>> Okay.
>>
>>
>> -- even though I wish he would drop out and
>>> transfer his delegate votes to nearly anyone.
>>>
>>> I rank Trump at the bottom of the candidate list, below all the other
>>> candidates
>>
>>
>> Okay.
>>
>> because he wants to destroy democracy, destroy the U.S.
>>> economy as a favor to Putin, and destroy the U.S. military as another
>>> favor to Putin.
>>
>>
>> Yes, The Republican in general, & Trump in particular, always finishes
>> last, in every Condorcet or STAR poll that includes the Republocratic
>> candidates & the Progressive candidates.
>>
>> (In this election-year, Biden is winning the CIVS poll “2024 presidential
>> election”. Likewise in a few STAR polls. …because this year, some people
>> feel a desperate need to portray Biden winnable, to try to make people vote
>> for him in November. But ordinarily the top-finisher & CW is Jill or
>> Bernie…well alright, sometimes a Libertarian. Never, ever, is the
>> Republican anywhere but bottom.)
>>
>> …& yet, people actually believe that Jill Stein couldn’t beat him.
>> Usually she or Bernie is CW, too-finisher in those polls.
>>
>> So, the usual top-finisher can’t beat the always bottom-finisher?
>>
>> Wow! What are people smoking?
>>
>> Hello? The always-bottom-finisher isn’t a threat if we all vote for the
>> (same) candidate whom we actually all like.
>>
>> Forget “The-Lesser-Evil” & “The-Two-Choices”.
>>
>> In Burlington Alaska, it was clearly shown that the median-voters prefer
>> the more progressive candidates. …in confirmation of those poll-results.
>>
>> Lesser-evils voters worry too much!!!
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> In between I rank all the other candidates at the same preference level,
>>> and not worth researching to rank them because they lack high-level
>>> executive experience and expertise.
>>
>>
>> Okay. As I mentioned, in RCV & STV, it will be necessary to for the count
>> to rank those equal-ranked candidates in alphabetical-order. Is that okay?
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In the party poll, I rank the Democratic party as the only "approved"
>>> party because it's the only party offering a viable candidate.
>>
>>
>> Okay. The Democrat Party is your party vote, for the Party-PR count.
>>
>>
>> Though it would be improper for me to comment on your ballot, there’s no
>> rule that says I can’t comment on political-statements:
>>
>> See above about the results of Condorcet & STAR polls, & what Burlington
>> & Alaska showed about the preference of median-voters.
>>
>> Most people say (in answer to other polls) that they’re tired of
>> “The-Two-Choices”, & say they want different parties.
>>
>> So yes the parties other than the Republocratic Party aren’t “viable”,
>> because only the people want them. :-)
>>
>> Don’t let the TV tell you what or who is or isn’t “viable”.
>>
>> Vote honestly in November, for what we all want.  …& certainly not for
>> someone none of us want, for whom we’d have to hold our nose.
>>
>> If you’re holding your nose, reconsider your vote.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Under current circumstances I rank the Republican party at the bottom of
>>> the list, below all other parties.  That's because they are not offering
>>> a candidate who wants to preserve fair elections, protect the U.S.
>>> against its enemies, and improve the economy.  As another flaw, the new
>>> Republican party platform claims the presidential election will not be
>>> fair if the Republican candidate doesn't win the presidential election.
>>
>>
>> Agreed. Few people want the Republicans. They’d never win an election
>> with honest voting & honest count.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In case you didn't notice the above words "only approved party," I'll
>>> clarify that all the parties other than the Democratic party are
>>> "unapproved" because they do not offer viable candidates.
>>
>>
>> Look what the Democrats offer :-)
>>
>> That’s viable?
>>
>> ..even though most people say they don’t want them?
>>
>> Are the Democrats more viable than the candidates who usually win the
>> Condorcet & STAR polls that include the Republocrats & the Progressives?
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Apparently, in this poll, you want me to point to one party as the one I
>>> like.  It's "none of the above."  That's because I dislike all current
>>> U.S. political parties.  Yes, I'm willing to "throw away" this vote to
>>> express this preference
>>
>>
>> Okay. Done. Your ballot doesn’t cast a vote in the Party-PR balloting.
>>
>> You dislike all current parties? Have you read all of their platforms? If
>> not, how do you know you dislike them? What do you dislike about the
>> *policies* offered by some of the “3rd-parties” that you’ve heard of?
>>
>> I’m not trying to get you to change your vote. That would be improper. Of
>> course your ballot will be counted exactly as you said.
>>
>> I’m merely participating in the political-discussion.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Clarification:  I register with either the Republican or Democratic
>>> party so I can vote in the primary elections of one or the other of the
>>> two parties that supply viable nominees.
>>
>>
>> The two parties that none of us want are the only viable ones?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I switch between those two
>>> parties periodically.  I dislike them both.
>>
>>
>> Yes! We all do!
>>
>> Switch between them?
>>
>> Switch out of them!
>>
>> I also dislike all third
>>> parties.
>>
>>
>> All of them? Regarding the main ones you’ve heard of, which of their
>> platform-policies do you dislike?
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My dislike of existing political parties is why I promote
>>> election-method reform!
>>
>>
>> Yes, that’s why we’re all here! Dislike of The Two Choices.  …which
>> obviously are NOT the two choices.
>>
>> But which platform-policy of the main other parties that you’ve heard of
>> do you dislike?
>>
>>
>> If U.S. election reforms are well-designed,
>>> then in the future at least one U.S. party will be motivated to offer
>>> wise problem-solving leaders instead of whatever you want to call their
>>> current nominees.
>>
>>
>> Regarding the platform-policies & leaders of the parties you’ve heard of,
>> other than the Democrats & Republicans—what about them isn’t wise,
>> problem-solving?
>>
>> Michael Ossipoff
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard Fobes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/16/2024 9:24 PM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
>>> > One reason for my voting 1st is to demonstrate what I mean by the
>>> > voting-instructions:
>>>
>>> ...
>>> ----
>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list
>>> info
>>>
>>
>> ----
>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list info
>>
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>>
>
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