[EM] Poll Ballot, from Richard
Chris Benham
cbenhamau at yahoo.com.au
Thu Jul 18 14:43:53 PDT 2024
> What about just dividing that person’s vote equally among all those
> s/he equal-ranks?
That is logical and I suppose acceptable for this poll, but I do like it
better with the extra step I suggested.
> Better than throwing the ballot out.
Since we are using the same ballots for different methods, yes. In a
real-life serious Hare election I'd be content (assuming it's possible
to strictly rank all the candidates) to just consider equal-ranked
candidates and any ranked below them to be truncated.
In Australia the whole ballot would be classified as "informal" and not
counted towards the result.
On 19/07/2024 6:30 am, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 23:15 Chris Benham <cbenhamau at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> I assume in the party-PR poll we are just supposed to give our
> favourite. Is that correct?
>
>
> Yes, just indicate favorite party.
> ———
> For a real public political election by RCV, sure. I’d change my last
> name to Aardvark.
>
> What about just dividing that person’s vote equally among all those
> s/he equal-ranks?
>
> Disadvantages to what the voter might have wanted, but that rule would
> be stated in advance.
>
> Better than throwing the ballot out.
>
>
>
>
> On 18/07/2024 3:01 pm, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
>>
>> I forgot to mention: RCV & STV don’t allow equa-ranking (though
>> Condorcet does).
>>
>> However I wouldn’t call an RCV or STV ballot “spoiled” if it has
>> equal-ranking. I’d instead just rank any equal-ranked candidates,
>> at some particular rank-position, *in alphabetical-order by
>> last-name*
>>
>> I figure the voter won’t mind, because he doesn’t have any
>> preference among them.
>>
>> Is that okay?
>>
>> Of course, for the RP(wv) count your equal-ranked candidates will
>> be counted as equal-ranked, because equal-ranking is permissible
>> in Condorcet.
>>
>> Additional answers inline below:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 16:55 Richard, the VoteFair guy
>> <electionmethods at votefair.org> wrote:
>>
>> Michael, here is my ballot.
>>
>> You can translate this into your desired ballot format.
>>
>> If you claim you need a full ranking, then I choose not to
>> vote in this
>> poll. That's because I don't have time to research unfamiliar
>> candidates and unfamiliar parties.
>>
>> In the candidate poll my ballot is that I rank Biden as the only
>> "approved" candidate
>>
>>
>> Okay.
>>
>>
>> -- even though I wish he would drop out and
>> transfer his delegate votes to nearly anyone.
>>
>> I rank Trump at the bottom of the candidate list, below all
>> the other
>> candidates
>>
>>
>> Okay.
>>
>> because he wants to destroy democracy, destroy the U.S.
>> economy as a favor to Putin, and destroy the U.S. military as
>> another
>> favor to Putin.
>>
>>
>> Yes, The Republican in general, & Trump in particular, always
>> finishes last, in every Condorcet or STAR poll that includes the
>> Republocratic candidates & the Progressive candidates.
>>
>> (In this election-year, Biden is winning the CIVS poll “2024
>> presidential election”. Likewise in a few STAR polls. …because
>> this year, some people feel a desperate need to portray Biden
>> winnable, to try to make people vote for him in November. But
>> ordinarily the top-finisher & CW is Jill or Bernie…well alright,
>> sometimes a Libertarian. Never, ever, is the Republican anywhere
>> but bottom.)
>>
>> …& yet, people actually believe that Jill Stein couldn’t beat
>> him. Usually she or Bernie is CW, too-finisher in those polls.
>>
>> So, the usual top-finisher can’t beat the always bottom-finisher?
>>
>> Wow! What are people smoking?
>>
>> Hello? The always-bottom-finisher isn’t a threat if we all vote
>> for the (same) candidate whom we actually all like.
>>
>> Forget “The-Lesser-Evil” & “The-Two-Choices”.
>>
>> In Burlington Alaska, it was clearly shown that the median-voters
>> prefer the more progressive candidates. …in confirmation of those
>> poll-results.
>>
>> Lesser-evils voters worry too much!!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In between I rank all the other candidates at the same
>> preference level,
>> and not worth researching to rank them because they lack
>> high-level
>> executive experience and expertise.
>>
>>
>> Okay. As I mentioned, in RCV & STV, it will be necessary to for
>> the count to rank those equal-ranked candidates in
>> alphabetical-order. Is that okay?
>>
>>
>>
>> In the party poll, I rank the Democratic party as the only
>> "approved"
>> party because it's the only party offering a viable candidate.
>>
>>
>> Okay. The Democrat Party is your party vote, for the Party-PR count.
>>
>>
>> Though it would be improper for me to comment on your ballot,
>> there’s no rule that says I can’t comment on political-statements:
>>
>> See above about the results of Condorcet & STAR polls, & what
>> Burlington & Alaska showed about the preference of median-voters.
>>
>> Most people say (in answer to other polls) that they’re tired of
>> “The-Two-Choices”, & say they want different parties.
>>
>> So yes the parties other than the Republocratic Party aren’t
>> “viable”, because only the people want them. :-)
>>
>> Don’t let the TV tell you what or who is or isn’t “viable”.
>>
>> Vote honestly in November, for what we all want. …& certainly
>> not for someone none of us want, for whom we’d have to hold our nose.
>>
>> If you’re holding your nose, reconsider your vote.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Under current circumstances I rank the Republican party at
>> the bottom of
>> the list, below all other parties. That's because they are
>> not offering
>> a candidate who wants to preserve fair elections, protect the
>> U.S.
>> against its enemies, and improve the economy. As another
>> flaw, the new
>> Republican party platform claims the presidential election
>> will not be
>> fair if the Republican candidate doesn't win the presidential
>> election.
>>
>>
>> Agreed. Few people want the Republicans. They’d never win an
>> election with honest voting & honest count.
>>
>>
>>
>> In case you didn't notice the above words "only approved
>> party," I'll
>> clarify that all the parties other than the Democratic party are
>> "unapproved" because they do not offer viable candidates.
>>
>>
>> Look what the Democrats offer :-)
>>
>> That’s viable?
>>
>> ..even though most people say they don’t want them?
>>
>> Are the Democrats more viable than the candidates who usually win
>> the Condorcet & STAR polls that include the Republocrats & the
>> Progressives?
>>
>>
>>
>> Apparently, in this poll, you want me to point to one party
>> as the one I
>> like. It's "none of the above." That's because I dislike
>> all current
>> U.S. political parties. Yes, I'm willing to "throw away"
>> this vote to
>> express this preference
>>
>>
>> Okay. Done. Your ballot doesn’t cast a vote in the Party-PR
>> balloting.
>>
>> You dislike all current parties? Have you read all of their
>> platforms? If not, how do you know you dislike them? What do you
>> dislike about the *policies* offered by some of the “3rd-parties”
>> that you’ve heard of?
>>
>> I’m not trying to get you to change your vote. That would be
>> improper. Of course your ballot will be counted exactly as you said.
>>
>> I’m merely participating in the political-discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>> Clarification: I register with either the Republican or
>> Democratic
>> party so I can vote in the primary elections of one or the
>> other of the
>> two parties that supply viable nominees.
>>
>>
>> The two parties that none of us want are the only viable ones?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I switch between those two
>> parties periodically. I dislike them both.
>>
>>
>> Yes! We all do!
>>
>> Switch between them?
>>
>> Switch out of them!
>>
>> I also dislike all third
>> parties.
>>
>>
>> All of them? Regarding the main ones you’ve heard of, which of
>> their platform-policies do you dislike?
>>
>>
>>
>> My dislike of existing political parties is why I promote
>> election-method reform!
>>
>>
>> Yes, that’s why we’re all here! Dislike of The Two Choices.
>> …which obviously are NOT the two choices.
>>
>> But which platform-policy of the main other parties that you’ve
>> heard of do you dislike?
>>
>>
>> If U.S. election reforms are well-designed,
>> then in the future at least one U.S. party will be motivated
>> to offer
>> wise problem-solving leaders instead of whatever you want to
>> call their
>> current nominees.
>>
>>
>> Regarding the platform-policies & leaders of the parties you’ve
>> heard of, other than the Democrats & Republicans—what about them
>> isn’t wise, problem-solving?
>>
>> Michael Ossipoff
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Fobes
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/16/2024 9:24 PM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
>> > One reason for my voting 1st is to demonstrate what I mean
>> by the
>> > voting-instructions:
>>
>> ...
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>>
>>
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