<div dir="auto">Best would be to ask Richard whether he prefers alphabetical, random, or dividing the one vote equally among them.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">My first impression is that he doesn’t want any ordering.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Richard: What do you prefer?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 14:44 Chris Benham <<a href="mailto:cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au">cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>

  
    
  
  <div>
    <p><br>
      </p><blockquote type="cite">What about just dividing that person’s
        vote equally among all those s/he equal-ranks?</blockquote>
      <br>
      That is logical and I suppose acceptable for this poll, but I do
      like it better with the extra step I suggested.<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">Better than throwing the ballot out. </blockquote>
      <br>
      Since we are using the same ballots for different methods, yes. 
      In a real-life serious Hare election I'd be content (assuming it's
      possible to strictly rank all the candidates) to just consider
      equal-ranked candidates and any ranked below them to be truncated.<br>
      <br>
      In Australia the whole ballot  would be classified as "informal"
      and not counted towards the result.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    <p></p>
    <div>On 19/07/2024 6:30 am, Michael Ossipoff
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at
            23:15 Chris Benham <<a href="mailto:cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au" target="_blank">cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au</a>>
            wrote:</div>
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="auto">I assume in the party-PR poll we are just
              supposed to give our favourite. Is that correct?<br>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">Yes, just indicate favorite party.</div>
          <div dir="auto">———</div>
          <div dir="auto">For a real public political election by RCV,
             sure. I’d change my last name to Aardvark.</div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">What about just dividing that person’s vote
            equally among all those s/he equal-ranks?</div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">Disadvantages to what the voter might have
            wanted, but that rule would be stated in advance.</div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">Better than throwing the ballot out. </div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="auto"></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><br>
              <br>
              <div>On 18/07/2024 3:01 pm, Michael Ossipoff wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div dir="auto">I forgot to mention: RCV & STV don’t
                  allow equa-ranking (though Condorcet does).</div>
                <div dir="auto"><br>
                </div>
                <div dir="auto">However I wouldn’t call an RCV or STV
                  ballot “spoiled” if it has equal-ranking. I’d instead
                  just rank any equal-ranked candidates, at some
                  particular rank-position, *in alphabetical-order by
                  last-name*</div>
                <div dir="auto"><br>
                </div>
                <div dir="auto">I figure the voter won’t mind, because
                  he doesn’t have any preference among them.</div>
                <div dir="auto"><br>
                </div>
                <div dir="auto">Is that okay?</div>
                <div dir="auto"><br>
                </div>
                <div dir="auto">Of course, for the RP(wv) count your
                  equal-ranked candidates will be counted as
                  equal-ranked, because equal-ranking is permissible in
                  Condorcet.</div>
                <div dir="auto"><br>
                </div>
                <div dir="auto">Additional answers inline below:</div>
                <div dir="auto"><br>
                </div>
                <div dir="auto">On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 16:55 Richard,
                  the VoteFair guy <<a>electionmethods@votefair.org</a>>
                  wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <div dir="auto">
                  <div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">Michael,
                      here is my ballot.<br>
                      <br>
                      You can translate this into your desired ballot
                      format.<br>
                      <br>
                      If you claim you need a full ranking, then I
                      choose not to vote in this <br>
                      poll.  That's because I don't have time to
                      research unfamiliar <br>
                      candidates and unfamiliar parties.<br>
                      <br>
                      In the candidate poll my ballot is that I rank
                      Biden as the only <br>
                      "approved" candidate</blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Okay.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto"> -- even though I wish he would drop
                      out and <br>
                      transfer his delegate votes to nearly anyone.<br>
                      <br>
                      I rank Trump at the bottom of the candidate list,
                      below all the other <br>
                      candidates</blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Okay.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto">because he wants to destroy democracy,
                      destroy the U.S. <br>
                      economy as a favor to Putin, and destroy the U.S.
                      military as another <br>
                      favor to Putin.</blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Yes, The Republican in general,
                      & Trump in particular, always finishes last,
                      in every Condorcet or STAR poll that includes the
                      Republocratic candidates & the Progressive
                      candidates.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">(In this election-year, Biden is
                      winning the CIVS poll “2024 presidential
                      election”. Likewise in a few STAR polls. …because
                      this year, some people feel a desperate need to
                      portray Biden winnable, to try to make people vote
                      for him in November. But ordinarily the
                      top-finisher & CW is Jill or Bernie…well
                      alright, sometimes a Libertarian. Never, ever, is
                      the Republican anywhere but bottom.)</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">…& yet, people actually believe
                      that Jill Stein couldn’t beat him. Usually she or
                      Bernie is CW, too-finisher in those polls.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">So, the usual top-finisher can’t
                      beat the always bottom-finisher?</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Wow! What are people smoking?</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Hello? The always-bottom-finisher
                      isn’t a threat if we all vote for the (same)
                      candidate whom we actually all like.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Forget “The-Lesser-Evil” &
                      “The-Two-Choices”.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">In Burlington Alaska, it was clearly
                      shown that the median-voters prefer the more
                      progressive candidates. …in confirmation of those
                      poll-results.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Lesser-evils voters worry too
                      much!!!</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto"><br>
                      <br>
                      In between I rank all the other candidates at the
                      same preference level, <br>
                      and not worth researching to rank them because
                      they lack high-level <br>
                      executive experience and expertise.</blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Okay. As I mentioned, in RCV &
                      STV, it will be necessary to for the count to rank
                      those equal-ranked candidates in
                      alphabetical-order. Is that okay?</div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto"><br>
                      <br>
                      In the party poll, I rank the Democratic party as
                      the only "approved" <br>
                      party because it's the only party offering a
                      viable candidate.</blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Okay. The Democrat Party is your
                      party vote, for the Party-PR count.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Though it would be improper for me
                      to comment on your ballot, there’s no rule that
                      says I can’t comment on political-statements:</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">See above about the results of
                      Condorcet & STAR polls, & what Burlington
                      & Alaska showed about the preference of
                      median-voters.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Most people say (in answer to other
                      polls) that they’re tired of “The-Two-Choices”,
                      & say they want different parties.<br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">So yes the parties other than the
                      Republocratic Party aren’t “viable”, because only
                      the people want them. :-)</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Don’t let the TV tell you what or
                      who is or isn’t “viable”.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Vote honestly in November, for what
                      we all want.  …& certainly not for someone
                      none of us want, for whom we’d have to hold our
                      nose.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">If you’re holding your nose,
                      reconsider your vote.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto"><br>
                      <br>
                      Under current circumstances I rank the Republican
                      party at the bottom of <br>
                      the list, below all other parties.  That's because
                      they are not offering <br>
                      a candidate who wants to preserve fair elections,
                      protect the U.S. <br>
                      against its enemies, and improve the economy.  As
                      another flaw, the new <br>
                      Republican party platform claims the presidential
                      election will not be <br>
                      fair if the Republican candidate doesn't win the
                      presidential election.</blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Agreed. Few people want the
                      Republicans. They’d never win an election with
                      honest voting & honest count.</div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto"><br>
                      <br>
                      In case you didn't notice the above words "only
                      approved party," I'll <br>
                      clarify that all the parties other than the
                      Democratic party are <br>
                      "unapproved" because they do not offer viable
                      candidates.</blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Look what the Democrats offer :-)</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">That’s viable? </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">..even though most people say they
                      don’t want them?</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Are the Democrats more viable than
                      the candidates who usually win the Condorcet &
                      STAR polls that include the Republocrats & the
                      Progressives?</div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto"><br>
                      <br>
                      Apparently, in this poll, you want me to point to
                      one party as the one I <br>
                      like.  It's "none of the above."  That's because I
                      dislike all current <br>
                      U.S. political parties.  Yes, I'm willing to
                      "throw away" this vote to <br>
                      express this preference</blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Okay. Done. Your ballot doesn’t cast
                      a vote in the Party-PR balloting.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">You dislike all current parties?
                      Have you read all of their platforms? If not, how
                      do you know you dislike them? What do you dislike
                      about the *policies* offered by some of the
                      “3rd-parties” that you’ve heard of?</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">I’m not trying to get you to change
                      your vote. That would be improper. Of course your
                      ballot will be counted exactly as you said.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">I’m merely participating in the
                      political-discussion.</div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto"><br>
                      <br>
                      Clarification:  I register with either the
                      Republican or Democratic <br>
                      party so I can vote in the primary elections of
                      one or the other of the <br>
                      two parties that supply viable nominees. </blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">The two parties that none of us want
                      are the only viable ones? </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto"><br>
                    </blockquote>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto">I switch between those two <br>
                      parties periodically.  I dislike them both. </blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Yes! We all do!</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Switch between them? </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Switch out of them!</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto"> I also dislike all third <br>
                      parties.</blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">All of them? Regarding the main ones
                      you’ve heard of, which of their platform-policies
                      do you dislike?</div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto"><br>
                      <br>
                      My dislike of existing political parties is why I
                      promote <br>
                      election-method reform!  </blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Yes, that’s why we’re all here!
                      Dislike of The Two Choices.  …which obviously are
                      NOT the two choices.</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">But which platform-policy of the
                      main other parties that you’ve heard of do you
                      dislike?</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto">If U.S. election reforms are
                      well-designed, <br>
                      then in the future at least one U.S. party will be
                      motivated to offer <br>
                      wise problem-solving leaders instead of whatever
                      you want to call their <br>
                      current nominees.</blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Regarding the platform-policies
                      & leaders of the parties you’ve heard of,
                      other than the Democrats & Republicans—what
                      about them isn’t wise, problem-solving?</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Michael Ossipoff </div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto"><br>
                      <br>
                      Richard Fobes<br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      On 7/16/2024 9:24 PM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:<br>
                      > One reason for my voting 1st is to
                      demonstrate what I mean by the <br>
                      > voting-instructions:<br>
                      <br>
                      ...<br>
                      ----<br>
                      Election-Methods mailing list - see <a rel="noreferrer">https://electorama.com/em</a>
                      for list info<br>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <br>
                <fieldset></fieldset>
                <pre>----
Election-Methods mailing list - see <a>https://electorama.com/em</a> for list info
</pre>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            ----<br>
            Election-Methods mailing list - see <a rel="noreferrer">https://electorama.com/em</a> for
            list info<br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
  </div>

</blockquote></div></div>