[EM] (2): UK 'post mortem', 2nd discussion between Steve and Fred Gohlke

Alexander Praetorius citizen at serapath.de
Mon Jun 29 05:03:41 PDT 2015

On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 11:05 PM, Fred Gohlke <fredgohlke at verizon.net>

> Good Afternoon, Alexander Praetorius
> I've reviewed your comments a couple of times and find elements worthy of
> note.
> It seems to me you stress self-reliance as the cornerstone of democracy
> and equate self-reliance to self-employment.  Don't we need to recognize
> that the opportunities for self-employment are more restricted than they
> once were?  The old saying, "Go West, young man.", doesn't have the promise
> it had years ago.  Opening your own sandwich shop is pretty tough when
> chains of fast-food joints flood the community.

Becoming "Self Employed" is as easy as it was NEVER BEFORE.

   - self-reliance is not the same as self-employment, but....
   While self-reliance is possible as an employee, it's totally passive.
   You do as you have been told. You execute goals set by employers. You do
   not judge what you have been told to do, you execute and use your skills
   and knowledge to do so to the best of your ability and in return you get
   paid. Employees do not participate in shaping the world around them based
   on their values/morals/philosophies/worldview/... however you might want to
   call it.
   - Self-Employed, not in the sense of freelancers that work like
   mercenaries, but Self-employed in the sense of being a small-scale
   entrepreneur amongst many many other entrepreneurs have to participate in
   shaping reality consciously. They have to think about what kind of business
   to pursue.
   - Being "Self Employed" means, being an active participatory citizen in
   the market economy (it's a direct democracy with some unusual rules). Being
   an employee or something similar means, delegating your power to your
   representative, which is your boss ... which might delegate it even
   further... to his boss, and so on...

Another thought to think about:

   - Every employee is hired for a certain set of skills to do a certain
   amount of work and get paid for it. A big corporation might have a lot of
   revenue, but very simplified, this revenue is shared amongst a lot of
   employees. Each employee has some colleagues or is part of a team that has
   to coordinate itself with other teams, offering some team-specific or
   business-unit-specific services to other teams. Why wouldnt that team be
   viewed as an agency - and why wouldnt that agency be viewed as self
   employed people who work together for the duration of a project and doing
   that over and over for many projects - with the possibility that some
   members of that "agency" might also work in other "agencies" on some other
   With the help of the internet and the many tools that help people to do
   "project management", "time tracking", "invoicing", "business dashboards"
   and so on... the administrative overhead becomes so simple, that  indeed
   everyone can afford to "manage himself" easily.

> We may disagree about the importance of self-employment, but we are in
> agreement about a basic need of society.  You said, the people "... have to
> start co-deciding with the people they meet every day and about the way
> they want to do business".  I would say the people have to start
> co-deciding with the people they meet every day and about the way they want
> to be governed.

Who are the people met by people every day? Many people work 40h+ every
week and the people they meet are their colleagues at work. In the evening,
many people are exhausted and want to relax and spend time with family and
friends and not talk about politics (as it is perceived as "work"). Certain
Scientists and Politicians might talk about politics and society, but
probably they do so during their working hours and not when they come home
and relax with their kids or families or friends.

*A day has 24 hours. *People might sleep 8 of those hours. They might eat
and shop and clean and go to the toilet and shower and lots of stuff 1-2
hours a day.
They got to work for 8 hours, but they also commute back and forth, so that
might be then 9 h.
*Which leaves 5 hours a day for doing whatever they want...*
>From my experience, those 5 hours are spent with the family or with friends
to relax or doing some sports or other kinds of "consumer activities"
(where they can choose from what is available, which is decided in part by
what they "demand") ... but in part by what is decided by "their bosses"
(because as an employee they do not participate in that process)

> You continue, "... Only if they do that, they will discover and want more
> influence in all kinds of aspects of their lives....", and you are right.
> You echo the thoughts of Dr. Alasdair MacIntyre, who said that politics
> should be "a conception of political activity as one aspect of the everyday
> activity of every adult capable of engaging in it".  He went on to say,
> "Human beings, as the kind of creatures we are, need the internal
> goods/goods of excellence that can only be acquired through participation
> in politics if we are to flourish.  Therefore, everyone must be allowed to
> have access to the political decision-making process."

Which in practice has to happen at work, so that people can practice this
participation and get some experience and expertise.
When would be the time in which they do that? What kind of luxury is that
activity anyway if it is not integrated in everyone's profession?

> Because of the similarity in your views, you might enjoy The Political
> Philosophy of Alasdair MacIntyre in The Internet Encyclopedia of
> Philosophy, at:
> http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/p-macint.htm
> Fred Gohlke
> ----
> Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info


*Everything I have written above is my personal experience/opinion on
things, no matter what kinds of words i did use(e.g. "always", "never",
"impossible", "waste of time", ....).*

*Such extreme words only do indicate, that my experience/opinion on
something is very strong and i currently cannot imagine that there are
other possibilities until new arguments/insights/whatever open my eyes that
there are alternative perspectives too :-)Please do not feel discouraged to
challenge my opinion if you have a different one.*

*Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen*
Alexander Praetorius
Bornemannstrasse 17
D - 60599 Frankfurt am Main
*[skype] *alexander.praetorius
*[mail] *citizen at serapath.de <alexander.praetorius at serapath.de>
*[web] *http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath
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