[EM] Reply to an IRVist post on December 17th

[Michael Garman]

Okay, so G can't win. Move your eyes up to the very previous sentence I
wrote.

> If G is eliminated first, your ballot counts for D vs. R in round 2.


On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:55 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:41 Michael Garman <michael.garman at rankthevote.us>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> If D is eliminated first, your ballot counts for G vs. R in round 2.
>>
>
> The promise was about when 1st choice can’t win. When it’s determined that
> Green’s votecount loses to Republican’s votecount, Your next-ranked choice,
> the Democrat, is no longer there. Contrary to FairVote’s promise, you
> didn’t help hir.
>
> The dishonesty of that false promise is recognized throughout the
> electoral reform movement.
>
> Continuing to talk to a cult-Irvist is pointless.
>
>
>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:39 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:26 Michael Garman <
>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>> Your next choice is your next highest choice in the running. That’s
>>>> pretty self-evident.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, what’s evident is that FairVote promises that, if your favorite is
>>> the Green, & you rank sincerely, Green>Democrat>Republican, your ballot
>>> will count for the Democrat if the Green can’t win.
>>>
>>> No one but you interprets it to mean that your ballot will help your
>>> 3rd-choice, the Republican to win.
>>>
>>> No one but you interprets that promise to mean the Republican as your
>>> next choice.
>>>
>>> Your dishonest contortions are cultish.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I did forget about EqualVote, but what has EqualVote accomplished?
>>>> Honest question. I haven’t seen anything of a grassroots presence from
>>>> them. If I’m wrong, correct me — their mission is admirable.
>>>>
>>>> It’s certainly not a stretch to say that the overwhelming majority of
>>>> legislative and ballot-measure electoral reform accomplishments belong to
>>>> FairVote and allies.
>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:22 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Your next choice after your 1st choice is your 2nd-choice, who is no
>>>>> longer there when your 1st choice is determined to lose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your next remaining choice at that time is Worst, your 3rd choice.
>>>>> That wasn’t FairVote’s promise.
>>>>>
>>>>> EqualVote has been “out there doing the work”.  …but without all the
>>>>> wealth that did the work for FairVote. EqualVote are a newer organization,
>>>>> & therefore haven’t been “doing the work” for as long.
>>>>>
>>>>> I merely question the honesty & morality of how FairVote has been
>>>>> “doing the work”.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:08 Michael Garman <
>>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> “Our cult” are the only people actually out there doing the work. Try
>>>>>> talking to voters instead of hiding behind your keyboard sometime. I
>>>>>> recommend it :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Show me where FairVote explicitly states “second choice” rather than
>>>>>> “next choice.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:59 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Evidently it’s necessary to repeat that, no, that isn’t what
>>>>>>> FairVote promises. They promise that your ballot will count toward your
>>>>>>> 2nd-choice. Not the same thing. Your ballot, & its 2nd-choice ranking of
>>>>>>> your 2nd-choice didn’t help your 2nd choice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your last remaining choice? Undeniably your last remaining choice
>>>>>>> WINS, because your 3rd choice is the only remaining one when all of your
>>>>>>> other choices have lost.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Congratulations, you have the election of your last remaining choice
>>>>>>> !!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> …by your strained dishonest argument.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your cult isn’t part of the electoral-reform movement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The leaders of several single-winner-reform organizations met in New
>>>>>>> Orleans, & in that meeting, some of them called Rob Richie on the lie.
>>>>>>> Richie promised to stop telling the lie in his promotion of RCV.  …but soon
>>>>>>> resumed doing so.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do you want me to prove it. It was told to me by someone who was
>>>>>>> there. Sara Wolk, the Director of the EqualVote Coalition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shall I ask her for the date of the meeting? I will. Shall I ask her
>>>>>>> for the names of the other participants too? I’ll do that too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We wouldn’t want to lie, would we :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 10:38 Michael Garman <
>>>>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your ballot helps your highest remaining choice. That's what
>>>>>>>> FairVote promises. Back when this conversation was active in December, you
>>>>>>>> cheerfully promised to immediately deliver receipts substantiating your
>>>>>>>> claims of deception and failed to do so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:33 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Call it what you want, but Worst wins because you ranked Best 1st
>>>>>>>>> instead of ranking Good 1st.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Contrary to FairVote’s promise, your ballot doesn’t help your 2nd
>>>>>>>>> choice when your favorite is unable to win, because your 2nd choice is no
>>>>>>>>> longer there.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FairVote’s promise is an intentional false-statement. We have a
>>>>>>>>> word for intentional false statements. It’s called a lie.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When a lie is used to sell a product to a trusting buyer, we have
>>>>>>>>> a word for that too. It’s called fraud.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 08:07 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But if we're being precise, Best could never be "eliminated" in
>>>>>>>>>> your scenario. There would be only two candidates left, and so the tallying
>>>>>>>>>> would necessarily end in that round with two candidates. Anyone who
>>>>>>>>>> ranked Best>Good>Worst would have their ballot counted towards Best in the
>>>>>>>>>> final round, after Good is eliminated. It would never be counted towards
>>>>>>>>>> Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 8:50 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Greg—
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In my example, I said that first Good gets eliminated, & then
>>>>>>>>>>> Best gets eliminated.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So all that remains is Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I made a typo in my post. I meant to say that the
>>>>>>>>>>> Good-supporters either didn’t vote a 2nd choice, or else their 2nd-choice
>>>>>>>>>>> transfer was to  Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> …but, when wrote that, I accidentally said “Best-supporters”,
>>>>>>>>>>> when I meant “Good-supporters”.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 17:18 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hold on a second, if Good gets eliminated, there are only two
>>>>>>>>>>>> candidates (Best and Worst) remaining, and whichever of those two with the
>>>>>>>>>>>> most votes wins. That sample ballot counts for "Best" in the final round --
>>>>>>>>>>>> it is never counted for "Worst."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024, 5:15 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it [your ballot] doesn't[count for your 2nd choice] ,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unless your 2nd choice is still there. Oops !!! You &
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richie forgot to include the word "Maybe"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Garman said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fine…it counts for your next highest choice still in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> running. Which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> also a reasonable interpretation of the “next choice” language
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you cite.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Satisfied?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that person have any idea what he’s saying?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Say the election is between Best, Good, &Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You rank Best>Good>Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good gets eliminated first, & then Best gets eliminated, &
>>>>>>>>>>>>> either hir ballots don’t have a 2nd choice, or hir transfers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> go to Worst. According to our friend here, now Good is no longer your 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nd choice. The elimination of Good makes Worst your 2nd
>>>>>>>>>>>>> choice, & so FairVote’s promise is kept:  Your 2nd choice,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Worst is elected !!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, but wait, it gets even better:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Worst isn’t only your 2nd choice now:  By our IRVist friend’s
>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition of “choice”, now Worst becomes your 1st choice
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (because he’s the only remaining candidate).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Congratulations !! You’ve elected your 1st choice, Worst !!!~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ladies & Gentlemen of the jury: I present to you exhibit B,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> further confirmation of the universal astounding dishonesty of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> promotion of RCV.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for list info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> *Greg Dennis, Ph.D. :: Policy Director*
>>>>>>>>>> Voter Choice Massachusetts
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> e :: greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org
>>>>>>>>>> p :: 617.835.9161
>>>>>>>>>> w :: voterchoicema.org <https://www.voterchoicema.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> :: Follow us on Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/yeson2rcv>
>>>>>>>>>>  and Twitter <https://twitter.com/yeson2rcv> ::
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for
>>>>>>>>> list info
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/attachments/20240205/e9cab999/attachment-0001.htm>