[EM] Reply to an IRVist post on December 17th

Mon Feb 5 12:01:50 PST 2024

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:57 Michael Garman <michael.garman at rankthevote.us>
wrote:

> Okay, so G can't win. Move your eyes up to the very previous sentence I
> wrote.
>
> > If G is eliminated first, your ballot counts for D vs. R in round 2.
>

Yes: “IF”.

Oops!! FairVote forgot to say “maybe” or “if…”.

>
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:55 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:41 Michael Garman <
>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If D is eliminated first, your ballot counts for G vs. R in round 2.
>>>
>>
>> The promise was about when 1st choice can’t win. When it’s determined
>> that Green’s votecount loses to Republican’s votecount, Your next-ranked
>> choice, the Democrat, is no longer there. Contrary to FairVote’s promise,
>> you didn’t help hir.
>>
>> The dishonesty of that false promise is recognized throughout the
>> electoral reform movement.
>>
>> Continuing to talk to a cult-Irvist is pointless.
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:39 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:26 Michael Garman <
>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Your next choice is your next highest choice in the running. That’s
>>>>> pretty self-evident.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, what’s evident is that FairVote promises that, if your favorite is
>>>> the Green, & you rank sincerely, Green>Democrat>Republican, your ballot
>>>> will count for the Democrat if the Green can’t win.
>>>>
>>>> No one but you interprets it to mean that your ballot will help your
>>>> 3rd-choice, the Republican to win.
>>>>
>>>> No one but you interprets that promise to mean the Republican as your
>>>> next choice.
>>>>
>>>> Your dishonest contortions are cultish.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I did forget about EqualVote, but what has EqualVote accomplished?
>>>>> Honest question. I haven’t seen anything of a grassroots presence from
>>>>> them. If I’m wrong, correct me — their mission is admirable.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s certainly not a stretch to say that the overwhelming majority of
>>>>> legislative and ballot-measure electoral reform accomplishments belong to
>>>>> FairVote and allies.
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:22 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Your next choice after your 1st choice is your 2nd-choice, who is no
>>>>>> longer there when your 1st choice is determined to lose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your next remaining choice at that time is Worst, your 3rd choice.
>>>>>> That wasn’t FairVote’s promise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> EqualVote has been “out there doing the work”.  …but without all the
>>>>>> wealth that did the work for FairVote. EqualVote are a newer organization,
>>>>>> & therefore haven’t been “doing the work” for as long.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I merely question the honesty & morality of how FairVote has been
>>>>>> “doing the work”.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:08 Michael Garman <
>>>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “Our cult” are the only people actually out there doing the work.
>>>>>>> Try talking to voters instead of hiding behind your keyboard sometime. I
>>>>>>> recommend it :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Show me where FairVote explicitly states “second choice” rather than
>>>>>>> “next choice.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:59 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Evidently it’s necessary to repeat that, no, that isn’t what
>>>>>>>> FairVote promises. They promise that your ballot will count toward your
>>>>>>>> 2nd-choice. Not the same thing. Your ballot, & its 2nd-choice ranking of
>>>>>>>> your 2nd-choice didn’t help your 2nd choice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your last remaining choice? Undeniably your last remaining choice
>>>>>>>> WINS, because your 3rd choice is the only remaining one when all of your
>>>>>>>> other choices have lost.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Congratulations, you have the election of your last remaining
>>>>>>>> choice !!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> …by your strained dishonest argument.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your cult isn’t part of the electoral-reform movement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The leaders of several single-winner-reform organizations met in
>>>>>>>> New Orleans, & in that meeting, some of them called Rob Richie on the lie.
>>>>>>>> Richie promised to stop telling the lie in his promotion of RCV.  …but soon
>>>>>>>> resumed doing so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How do you want me to prove it. It was told to me by someone who
>>>>>>>> was there. Sara Wolk, the Director of the EqualVote Coalition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Shall I ask her for the date of the meeting? I will. Shall I ask
>>>>>>>> her for the names of the other participants too? I’ll do that too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We wouldn’t want to lie, would we :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 10:38 Michael Garman <
>>>>>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your ballot helps your highest remaining choice. That's what
>>>>>>>>> FairVote promises. Back when this conversation was active in December, you
>>>>>>>>> cheerfully promised to immediately deliver receipts substantiating your
>>>>>>>>> claims of deception and failed to do so.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:33 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Call it what you want, but Worst wins because you ranked Best 1st
>>>>>>>>>> instead of ranking Good 1st.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Contrary to FairVote’s promise, your ballot doesn’t help your 2nd
>>>>>>>>>> choice when your favorite is unable to win, because your 2nd choice is no
>>>>>>>>>> longer there.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> FairVote’s promise is an intentional false-statement. We have a
>>>>>>>>>> word for intentional false statements. It’s called a lie.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When a lie is used to sell a product to a trusting buyer, we have
>>>>>>>>>> a word for that too. It’s called fraud.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 08:07 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But if we're being precise, Best could never be "eliminated" in
>>>>>>>>>>> your scenario. There would be only two candidates left, and so the tallying
>>>>>>>>>>> would necessarily end in that round with two candidates. Anyone who
>>>>>>>>>>> ranked Best>Good>Worst would have their ballot counted towards Best in the
>>>>>>>>>>> final round, after Good is eliminated. It would never be counted towards
>>>>>>>>>>> Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 8:50 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg—
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In my example, I said that first Good gets eliminated, & then
>>>>>>>>>>>> Best gets eliminated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So all that remains is Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I made a typo in my post. I meant to say that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Good-supporters either didn’t vote a 2nd choice, or else their 2nd-choice
>>>>>>>>>>>> transfer was to  Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> …but, when wrote that, I accidentally said “Best-supporters”,
>>>>>>>>>>>> when I meant “Good-supporters”.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 17:18 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>>>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hold on a second, if Good gets eliminated, there are only two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> candidates (Best and Worst) remaining, and whichever of those two with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> most votes wins. That sample ballot counts for "Best" in the final round --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is never counted for "Worst."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024, 5:15 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it [your ballot] doesn't[count for your 2nd choice] ,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unless your 2nd choice is still there. Oops !!! You &
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richie forgot to include the word "Maybe"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Garman said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fine…it counts for your next highest choice still in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running. Which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also a reasonable interpretation of the “next choice”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language you cite.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Satisfied?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that person have any idea what he’s saying?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Say the election is between Best, Good, &Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You rank Best>Good>Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good gets eliminated first, & then Best gets eliminated, &
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either hir ballots don’t have a 2nd choice, or hir transfers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go to Worst. According to our friend here, now Good is no longer your 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nd choice. The elimination of Good makes Worst your 2nd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choice, & so FairVote’s promise is kept:  Your 2nd choice,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Worst is elected !!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, but wait, it gets even better:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Worst isn’t only your 2nd choice now:  By our IRVist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friend’s definition of “choice”, now Worst becomes your 1st
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choice (because he’s the only remaining candidate).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Congratulations !! You’ve elected your 1st choice, Worst !!!~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ladies & Gentlemen of the jury: I present to you exhibit B,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> further confirmation of the universal astounding dishonesty of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> promotion of RCV.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for list info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> *Greg Dennis, Ph.D. :: Policy Director*
>>>>>>>>>>> Voter Choice Massachusetts
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> e :: greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org
>>>>>>>>>>> p :: 617.835.9161
>>>>>>>>>>> w :: voterchoicema.org <https://www.voterchoicema.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> :: Follow us on Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/yeson2rcv>
>>>>>>>>>>>  and Twitter <https://twitter.com/yeson2rcv> ::
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em
>>>>>>>>>> for list info
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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