[EM] Reply to an IRVist post on December 17th

[Michael Garman]

In your example, there are three candidates, G-D-R.

That means a maximum of two rounds of counting.

If G is eliminated first, your ballot counts for D vs. R in round 2.

If D is eliminated first, your ballot counts for G vs. R in round 2.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:39 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:26 Michael Garman <michael.garman at rankthevote.us>
> wrote:
>
>>
> Your next choice is your next highest choice in the running. That’s pretty
>> self-evident.
>>
>
> No, what’s evident is that FairVote promises that, if your favorite is the
> Green, & you rank sincerely, Green>Democrat>Republican, your ballot will
> count for the Democrat if the Green can’t win.
>
> No one but you interprets it to mean that your ballot will help your
> 3rd-choice, the Republican to win.
>
> No one but you interprets that promise to mean the Republican as your next
> choice.
>
> Your dishonest contortions are cultish.
>
>>
>> I did forget about EqualVote, but what has EqualVote accomplished? Honest
>> question. I haven’t seen anything of a grassroots presence from them. If
>> I’m wrong, correct me — their mission is admirable.
>>
>> It’s certainly not a stretch to say that the overwhelming majority of
>> legislative and ballot-measure electoral reform accomplishments belong to
>> FairVote and allies.
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:22 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Your next choice after your 1st choice is your 2nd-choice, who is no
>>> longer there when your 1st choice is determined to lose.
>>>
>>> Your next remaining choice at that time is Worst, your 3rd choice. That
>>> wasn’t FairVote’s promise.
>>>
>>> EqualVote has been “out there doing the work”.  …but without all the
>>> wealth that did the work for FairVote. EqualVote are a newer organization,
>>> & therefore haven’t been “doing the work” for as long.
>>>
>>> I merely question the honesty & morality of how FairVote has been “doing
>>> the work”.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:08 Michael Garman <
>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>> “Our cult” are the only people actually out there doing the work. Try
>>>> talking to voters instead of hiding behind your keyboard sometime. I
>>>> recommend it :)
>>>>
>>>> Show me where FairVote explicitly states “second choice” rather than
>>>> “next choice.”
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:59 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Evidently it’s necessary to repeat that, no, that isn’t what FairVote
>>>>> promises. They promise that your ballot will count toward your 2nd-choice.
>>>>> Not the same thing. Your ballot, & its 2nd-choice ranking of your
>>>>> 2nd-choice didn’t help your 2nd choice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your last remaining choice? Undeniably your last remaining choice
>>>>> WINS, because your 3rd choice is the only remaining one when all of your
>>>>> other choices have lost.
>>>>>
>>>>> Congratulations, you have the election of your last remaining choice
>>>>> !!!
>>>>>
>>>>> …by your strained dishonest argument.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your cult isn’t part of the electoral-reform movement.
>>>>>
>>>>> The leaders of several single-winner-reform organizations met in New
>>>>> Orleans, & in that meeting, some of them called Rob Richie on the lie.
>>>>> Richie promised to stop telling the lie in his promotion of RCV.  …but soon
>>>>> resumed doing so.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do you want me to prove it. It was told to me by someone who was
>>>>> there. Sara Wolk, the Director of the EqualVote Coalition.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shall I ask her for the date of the meeting? I will. Shall I ask her
>>>>> for the names of the other participants too? I’ll do that too.
>>>>>
>>>>> We wouldn’t want to lie, would we :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 10:38 Michael Garman <
>>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Your ballot helps your highest remaining choice. That's what FairVote
>>>>>> promises. Back when this conversation was active in December, you
>>>>>> cheerfully promised to immediately deliver receipts substantiating your
>>>>>> claims of deception and failed to do so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:33 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Call it what you want, but Worst wins because you ranked Best 1st
>>>>>>> instead of ranking Good 1st.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Contrary to FairVote’s promise, your ballot doesn’t help your 2nd
>>>>>>> choice when your favorite is unable to win, because your 2nd choice is no
>>>>>>> longer there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FairVote’s promise is an intentional false-statement. We have a word
>>>>>>> for intentional false statements. It’s called a lie.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When a lie is used to sell a product to a trusting buyer, we have a
>>>>>>> word for that too. It’s called fraud.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 08:07 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But if we're being precise, Best could never be "eliminated" in
>>>>>>>> your scenario. There would be only two candidates left, and so the tallying
>>>>>>>> would necessarily end in that round with two candidates. Anyone who
>>>>>>>> ranked Best>Good>Worst would have their ballot counted towards Best in the
>>>>>>>> final round, after Good is eliminated. It would never be counted towards
>>>>>>>> Worst.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 8:50 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Greg—
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In my example, I said that first Good gets eliminated, & then Best
>>>>>>>>> gets eliminated.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So all that remains is Worst.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I made a typo in my post. I meant to say that the Good-supporters
>>>>>>>>> either didn’t vote a 2nd choice, or else their 2nd-choice transfer was to
>>>>>>>>>  Worst.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> …but, when wrote that, I accidentally said “Best-supporters”, when
>>>>>>>>> I meant “Good-supporters”.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 17:18 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hold on a second, if Good gets eliminated, there are only two
>>>>>>>>>> candidates (Best and Worst) remaining, and whichever of those two with the
>>>>>>>>>> most votes wins. That sample ballot counts for "Best" in the final round --
>>>>>>>>>> it is never counted for "Worst."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024, 5:15 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, it [your ballot] doesn't[count for your 2nd choice] ,
>>>>>>>>>>> unless your 2nd choice is still there. Oops !!! You &
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Richie forgot to include the word "Maybe"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Garman said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fine…it counts for your next highest choice still in the
>>>>>>>>>>> running. Which is
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> also a reasonable interpretation of the “next choice” language
>>>>>>>>>>> you cite.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Satisfied?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Does that person have any idea what he’s saying?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Say the election is between Best, Good, &Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You rank Best>Good>Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Good gets eliminated first, & then Best gets eliminated, &
>>>>>>>>>>> either hir ballots don’t have a 2nd choice, or hir transfers go
>>>>>>>>>>> to Worst. According to our friend here, now Good is no longer your 2
>>>>>>>>>>> nd choice. The elimination of Good makes Worst your 2nd choice,
>>>>>>>>>>> & so FairVote’s promise is kept:  Your 2nd choice, Worst is
>>>>>>>>>>> elected !!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, but wait, it gets even better:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Worst isn’t only your 2nd choice now:  By our IRVist friend’s
>>>>>>>>>>> definition of “choice”, now Worst becomes your 1st choice
>>>>>>>>>>> (because he’s the only remaining candidate).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Congratulations !! You’ve elected your 1st choice, Worst !!!~
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ladies & Gentlemen of the jury: I present to you exhibit B,
>>>>>>>>>>> further confirmation of the universal astounding dishonesty of the
>>>>>>>>>>> promotion of RCV.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em
>>>>>>>>>>> for list info
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> *Greg Dennis, Ph.D. :: Policy Director*
>>>>>>>> Voter Choice Massachusetts
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> e :: greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org
>>>>>>>> p :: 617.835.9161
>>>>>>>> w :: voterchoicema.org <https://www.voterchoicema.org/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> :: Follow us on Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/yeson2rcv> and
>>>>>>>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/yeson2rcv> ::
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for
>>>>>>> list info
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/attachments/20240205/ebfc3a73/attachment-0001.htm>