[EM] Reply to an IRVist post on December 17th

[Michael Ossipoff]

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:26 Michael Garman <michael.garman at rankthevote.us>
wrote:

>
Your next choice is your next highest choice in the running. That’s pretty
> self-evident.
>

No, what’s evident is that FairVote promises that, if your favorite is the
Green, & you rank sincerely, Green>Democrat>Republican, your ballot will
count for the Democrat if the Green can’t win.

No one but you interprets it to mean that your ballot will help your
3rd-choice, the Republican to win.

No one but you interprets that promise to mean the Republican as your next
choice.

Your dishonest contortions are cultish.

>
> I did forget about EqualVote, but what has EqualVote accomplished? Honest
> question. I haven’t seen anything of a grassroots presence from them. If
> I’m wrong, correct me — their mission is admirable.
>
> It’s certainly not a stretch to say that the overwhelming majority of
> legislative and ballot-measure electoral reform accomplishments belong to
> FairVote and allies.
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:22 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Your next choice after your 1st choice is your 2nd-choice, who is no
>> longer there when your 1st choice is determined to lose.
>>
>> Your next remaining choice at that time is Worst, your 3rd choice. That
>> wasn’t FairVote’s promise.
>>
>> EqualVote has been “out there doing the work”.  …but without all the
>> wealth that did the work for FairVote. EqualVote are a newer organization,
>> & therefore haven’t been “doing the work” for as long.
>>
>> I merely question the honesty & morality of how FairVote has been “doing
>> the work”.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:08 Michael Garman <
>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>
>>> “Our cult” are the only people actually out there doing the work. Try
>>> talking to voters instead of hiding behind your keyboard sometime. I
>>> recommend it :)
>>>
>>> Show me where FairVote explicitly states “second choice” rather than
>>> “next choice.”
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:59 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Evidently it’s necessary to repeat that, no, that isn’t what FairVote
>>>> promises. They promise that your ballot will count toward your 2nd-choice.
>>>> Not the same thing. Your ballot, & its 2nd-choice ranking of your
>>>> 2nd-choice didn’t help your 2nd choice.
>>>>
>>>> Your last remaining choice? Undeniably your last remaining choice WINS,
>>>> because your 3rd choice is the only remaining one when all of your other
>>>> choices have lost.
>>>>
>>>> Congratulations, you have the election of your last remaining choice !!!
>>>>
>>>> …by your strained dishonest argument.
>>>>
>>>> Your cult isn’t part of the electoral-reform movement.
>>>>
>>>> The leaders of several single-winner-reform organizations met in New
>>>> Orleans, & in that meeting, some of them called Rob Richie on the lie.
>>>> Richie promised to stop telling the lie in his promotion of RCV.  …but soon
>>>> resumed doing so.
>>>>
>>>> How do you want me to prove it. It was told to me by someone who was
>>>> there. Sara Wolk, the Director of the EqualVote Coalition.
>>>>
>>>> Shall I ask her for the date of the meeting? I will. Shall I ask her
>>>> for the names of the other participants too? I’ll do that too.
>>>>
>>>> We wouldn’t want to lie, would we :-)
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 10:38 Michael Garman <
>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Your ballot helps your highest remaining choice. That's what FairVote
>>>>> promises. Back when this conversation was active in December, you
>>>>> cheerfully promised to immediately deliver receipts substantiating your
>>>>> claims of deception and failed to do so.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:33 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Call it what you want, but Worst wins because you ranked Best 1st
>>>>>> instead of ranking Good 1st.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Contrary to FairVote’s promise, your ballot doesn’t help your 2nd
>>>>>> choice when your favorite is unable to win, because your 2nd choice is no
>>>>>> longer there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FairVote’s promise is an intentional false-statement. We have a word
>>>>>> for intentional false statements. It’s called a lie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When a lie is used to sell a product to a trusting buyer, we have a
>>>>>> word for that too. It’s called fraud.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 08:07 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But if we're being precise, Best could never be "eliminated" in your
>>>>>>> scenario. There would be only two candidates left, and so the tallying
>>>>>>> would necessarily end in that round with two candidates. Anyone who
>>>>>>> ranked Best>Good>Worst would have their ballot counted towards Best in the
>>>>>>> final round, after Good is eliminated. It would never be counted towards
>>>>>>> Worst.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 8:50 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Greg—
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my example, I said that first Good gets eliminated, & then Best
>>>>>>>> gets eliminated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So all that remains is Worst.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I made a typo in my post. I meant to say that the Good-supporters
>>>>>>>> either didn’t vote a 2nd choice, or else their 2nd-choice transfer was to
>>>>>>>>  Worst.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> …but, when wrote that, I accidentally said “Best-supporters”, when
>>>>>>>> I meant “Good-supporters”.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 17:18 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hold on a second, if Good gets eliminated, there are only two
>>>>>>>>> candidates (Best and Worst) remaining, and whichever of those two with the
>>>>>>>>> most votes wins. That sample ballot counts for "Best" in the final round --
>>>>>>>>> it is never counted for "Worst."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024, 5:15 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, it [your ballot] doesn't[count for your 2nd choice] , unless
>>>>>>>>>> your 2nd choice is still there. Oops !!! You &
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Richie forgot to include the word "Maybe"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Michael Garman said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Fine…it counts for your next highest choice still in the running.
>>>>>>>>>> Which is
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> also a reasonable interpretation of the “next choice” language
>>>>>>>>>> you cite.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Satisfied?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Does that person have any idea what he’s saying?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Say the election is between Best, Good, &Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You rank Best>Good>Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good gets eliminated first, & then Best gets eliminated, & either
>>>>>>>>>> hir ballots don’t have a 2nd choice, or hir transfers go to
>>>>>>>>>> Worst. According to our friend here, now Good is no longer your 2
>>>>>>>>>> nd choice. The elimination of Good makes Worst your 2nd choice,
>>>>>>>>>> & so FairVote’s promise is kept:  Your 2nd choice, Worst is
>>>>>>>>>> elected !!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Oh, but wait, it gets even better:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Worst isn’t only your 2nd choice now:  By our IRVist friend’s
>>>>>>>>>> definition of “choice”, now Worst becomes your 1st choice
>>>>>>>>>> (because he’s the only remaining candidate).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Congratulations !! You’ve elected your 1st choice, Worst !!!~
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ladies & Gentlemen of the jury: I present to you exhibit B,
>>>>>>>>>> further confirmation of the universal astounding dishonesty of the
>>>>>>>>>> promotion of RCV.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em
>>>>>>>>>> for list info
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> *Greg Dennis, Ph.D. :: Policy Director*
>>>>>>> Voter Choice Massachusetts
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> e :: greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org
>>>>>>> p :: 617.835.9161
>>>>>>> w :: voterchoicema.org <https://www.voterchoicema.org/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> :: Follow us on Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/yeson2rcv> and
>>>>>>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/yeson2rcv> ::
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for
>>>>>> list info
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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