[EM] Reply to an IRVist post on December 17th

Mon Feb 5 11:21:49 PST 2024

Your next choice after your 1st choice is your 2nd-choice, who is no longer
there when your 1st choice is determined to lose.

Your next remaining choice at that time is Worst, your 3rd choice. That
wasn’t FairVote’s promise.

EqualVote has been “out there doing the work”.  …but without all the wealth
that did the work for FairVote. EqualVote are a newer organization, &
therefore haven’t been “doing the work” for as long.

I merely question the honesty & morality of how FairVote has been “doing
the work”.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:08 Michael Garman <michael.garman at rankthevote.us>
wrote:

> “Our cult” are the only people actually out there doing the work. Try
> talking to voters instead of hiding behind your keyboard sometime. I
> recommend it :)
>
> Show me where FairVote explicitly states “second choice” rather than “next
> choice.”
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:59 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Evidently it’s necessary to repeat that, no, that isn’t what FairVote
>> promises. They promise that your ballot will count toward your 2nd-choice.
>> Not the same thing. Your ballot, & its 2nd-choice ranking of your
>> 2nd-choice didn’t help your 2nd choice.
>>
>> Your last remaining choice? Undeniably your last remaining choice WINS,
>> because your 3rd choice is the only remaining one when all of your other
>> choices have lost.
>>
>> Congratulations, you have the election of your last remaining choice !!!
>>
>> …by your strained dishonest argument.
>>
>> Your cult isn’t part of the electoral-reform movement.
>>
>> The leaders of several single-winner-reform organizations met in New
>> Orleans, & in that meeting, some of them called Rob Richie on the lie.
>> Richie promised to stop telling the lie in his promotion of RCV.  …but soon
>> resumed doing so.
>>
>> How do you want me to prove it. It was told to me by someone who was
>> there. Sara Wolk, the Director of the EqualVote Coalition.
>>
>> Shall I ask her for the date of the meeting? I will. Shall I ask her for
>> the names of the other participants too? I’ll do that too.
>>
>> We wouldn’t want to lie, would we :-)
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 10:38 Michael Garman <
>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>
>>> Your ballot helps your highest remaining choice. That's what FairVote
>>> promises. Back when this conversation was active in December, you
>>> cheerfully promised to immediately deliver receipts substantiating your
>>> claims of deception and failed to do so.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:33 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Call it what you want, but Worst wins because you ranked Best 1st
>>>> instead of ranking Good 1st.
>>>>
>>>> Contrary to FairVote’s promise, your ballot doesn’t help your 2nd
>>>> choice when your favorite is unable to win, because your 2nd choice is no
>>>> longer there.
>>>>
>>>> FairVote’s promise is an intentional false-statement. We have a word
>>>> for intentional false statements. It’s called a lie.
>>>>
>>>> When a lie is used to sell a product to a trusting buyer, we have a
>>>> word for that too. It’s called fraud.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 08:07 Greg Dennis <greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But if we're being precise, Best could never be "eliminated" in your
>>>>> scenario. There would be only two candidates left, and so the tallying
>>>>> would necessarily end in that round with two candidates. Anyone who
>>>>> ranked Best>Good>Worst would have their ballot counted towards Best in the
>>>>> final round, after Good is eliminated. It would never be counted towards
>>>>> Worst.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 8:50 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Greg—
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my example, I said that first Good gets eliminated, & then Best
>>>>>> gets eliminated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So all that remains is Worst.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I made a typo in my post. I meant to say that the Good-supporters
>>>>>> either didn’t vote a 2nd choice, or else their 2nd-choice transfer was to
>>>>>>  Worst.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> …but, when wrote that, I accidentally said “Best-supporters”, when I
>>>>>> meant “Good-supporters”.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 17:18 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hold on a second, if Good gets eliminated, there are only two
>>>>>>> candidates (Best and Worst) remaining, and whichever of those two with the
>>>>>>> most votes wins. That sample ballot counts for "Best" in the final round --
>>>>>>> it is never counted for "Worst."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024, 5:15 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it [your ballot] doesn't[count for your 2nd choice] , unless
>>>>>>>> your 2nd choice is still there. Oops !!! You &
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Richie forgot to include the word "Maybe"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michael Garman said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fine…it counts for your next highest choice still in the running.
>>>>>>>> Which is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> also a reasonable interpretation of the “next choice” language you
>>>>>>>> cite.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Satisfied?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does that person have any idea what he’s saying?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Say the election is between Best, Good, &Worst.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You rank Best>Good>Worst.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good gets eliminated first, & then Best gets eliminated, & either
>>>>>>>> hir ballots don’t have a 2nd choice, or hir transfers go to Worst.
>>>>>>>> According to our friend here, now Good is no longer your 2nd
>>>>>>>> choice. The elimination of Good makes Worst your 2nd choice, & so
>>>>>>>> FairVote’s promise is kept:  Your 2nd choice, Worst is elected !!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh, but wait, it gets even better:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Worst isn’t only your 2nd choice now:  By our IRVist friend’s
>>>>>>>> definition of “choice”, now Worst becomes your 1st choice (because
>>>>>>>> he’s the only remaining candidate).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Congratulations !! You’ve elected your 1st choice, Worst !!!~
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ladies & Gentlemen of the jury: I present to you exhibit B, further
>>>>>>>> confirmation of the universal astounding dishonesty of the promotion of RCV.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for
>>>>>>>> list info
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> *Greg Dennis, Ph.D. :: Policy Director*
>>>>> Voter Choice Massachusetts
>>>>>
>>>>> e :: greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org
>>>>> p :: 617.835.9161
>>>>> w :: voterchoicema.org <https://www.voterchoicema.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>> :: Follow us on Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/yeson2rcv> and
>>>>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/yeson2rcv> ::
>>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list
>>>> info
>>>>
>>>
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