[EM] Reply to an IRVist post on December 17th

[Michael Garman]

“Our cult” are the only people actually out there doing the work. Try
talking to voters instead of hiding behind your keyboard sometime. I
recommend it :)

Show me where FairVote explicitly states “second choice” rather than “next
choice.”

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:59 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Evidently it’s necessary to repeat that, no, that isn’t what FairVote
> promises. They promise that your ballot will count toward your 2nd-choice.
> Not the same thing. Your ballot, & its 2nd-choice ranking of your
> 2nd-choice didn’t help your 2nd choice.
>
> Your last remaining choice? Undeniably your last remaining choice WINS,
> because your 3rd choice is the only remaining one when all of your other
> choices have lost.
>
> Congratulations, you have the election of your last remaining choice !!!
>
> …by your strained dishonest argument.
>
> Your cult isn’t part of the electoral-reform movement.
>
> The leaders of several single-winner-reform organizations met in New
> Orleans, & in that meeting, some of them called Rob Richie on the lie.
> Richie promised to stop telling the lie in his promotion of RCV.  …but soon
> resumed doing so.
>
> How do you want me to prove it. It was told to me by someone who was
> there. Sara Wolk, the Director of the EqualVote Coalition.
>
> Shall I ask her for the date of the meeting? I will. Shall I ask her for
> the names of the other participants too? I’ll do that too.
>
> We wouldn’t want to lie, would we :-)
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 10:38 Michael Garman <michael.garman at rankthevote.us>
> wrote:
>
>> Your ballot helps your highest remaining choice. That's what FairVote
>> promises. Back when this conversation was active in December, you
>> cheerfully promised to immediately deliver receipts substantiating your
>> claims of deception and failed to do so.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:33 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Call it what you want, but Worst wins because you ranked Best 1st
>>> instead of ranking Good 1st.
>>>
>>> Contrary to FairVote’s promise, your ballot doesn’t help your 2nd choice
>>> when your favorite is unable to win, because your 2nd choice is no longer
>>> there.
>>>
>>> FairVote’s promise is an intentional false-statement. We have a word for
>>> intentional false statements. It’s called a lie.
>>>
>>> When a lie is used to sell a product to a trusting buyer, we have a word
>>> for that too. It’s called fraud.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 08:07 Greg Dennis <greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But if we're being precise, Best could never be "eliminated" in your
>>>> scenario. There would be only two candidates left, and so the tallying
>>>> would necessarily end in that round with two candidates. Anyone who
>>>> ranked Best>Good>Worst would have their ballot counted towards Best in the
>>>> final round, after Good is eliminated. It would never be counted towards
>>>> Worst.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 8:50 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Greg—
>>>>>
>>>>> In my example, I said that first Good gets eliminated, & then Best
>>>>> gets eliminated.
>>>>>
>>>>> So all that remains is Worst.
>>>>>
>>>>> I made a typo in my post. I meant to say that the Good-supporters
>>>>> either didn’t vote a 2nd choice, or else their 2nd-choice transfer was to
>>>>>  Worst.
>>>>>
>>>>> …but, when wrote that, I accidentally said “Best-supporters”, when I
>>>>> meant “Good-supporters”.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 17:18 Greg Dennis <
>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hold on a second, if Good gets eliminated, there are only two
>>>>>> candidates (Best and Worst) remaining, and whichever of those two with the
>>>>>> most votes wins. That sample ballot counts for "Best" in the final round --
>>>>>> it is never counted for "Worst."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024, 5:15 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it [your ballot] doesn't[count for your 2nd choice] , unless
>>>>>>> your 2nd choice is still there. Oops !!! You &
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Richie forgot to include the word "Maybe"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael Garman said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fine…it counts for your next highest choice still in the running.
>>>>>>> Which is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> also a reasonable interpretation of the “next choice” language you
>>>>>>> cite.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Satisfied?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does that person have any idea what he’s saying?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Say the election is between Best, Good, &Worst.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You rank Best>Good>Worst.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good gets eliminated first, & then Best gets eliminated, & either
>>>>>>> hir ballots don’t have a 2nd choice, or hir transfers go to Worst.
>>>>>>> According to our friend here, now Good is no longer your 2nd
>>>>>>> choice. The elimination of Good makes Worst your 2nd choice, & so
>>>>>>> FairVote’s promise is kept:  Your 2nd choice, Worst is elected !!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, but wait, it gets even better:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Worst isn’t only your 2nd choice now:  By our IRVist friend’s
>>>>>>> definition of “choice”, now Worst becomes your 1st choice (because
>>>>>>> he’s the only remaining candidate).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Congratulations !! You’ve elected your 1st choice, Worst !!!~
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ladies & Gentlemen of the jury: I present to you exhibit B, further
>>>>>>> confirmation of the universal astounding dishonesty of the promotion of RCV.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for
>>>>>>> list info
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> *Greg Dennis, Ph.D. :: Policy Director*
>>>> Voter Choice Massachusetts
>>>>
>>>> e :: greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org
>>>> p :: 617.835.9161
>>>> w :: voterchoicema.org <https://www.voterchoicema.org/>
>>>>
>>>> :: Follow us on Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/yeson2rcv> and
>>>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/yeson2rcv> ::
>>>>
>>> ----
>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list
>>> info
>>>
>>
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