[EM] Thermodynamics

Andy Dienes andydienes at gmail.com
Mon Jun 6 09:05:32 PDT 2022


These papers may be interesting regarding this discussion.

On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 1:13 AM robert bristow-johnson <
rbj at audioimagination.com> wrote:

> Like in audio data compression, I know the difference between lossy and
> lossless compression .  I sorta understand where the bits get allocated for
> the audio spectrum.  Like where it's appropriate to accurately represent
> the raw data and where we can fudge it a little.
> I don't know how to do that for voter data without making assumptions or
> postulates of the data.
> *Powered by Cricket Wireless*
> ------ Original message------
> *From: *Carl Schroedl
> *Date: *Sun, Jun 5, 2022 1:16 PM
> *To: *robert bristow-johnson;
> *Cc: *Forest Simmons;Richard Lung;EM;
> *Subject:*Re: [EM] Thermodynamics
> As a software guy, the connection I make is to something I have wondered
> for a while -- whether it is useful to study social choice functions as
> lossy compression algorithms. I haven't thought it through, but it could be
> interesting to see if the rate-distortion branch of information theory
> would apply.
> On Sat, Jun 4, 2022, 9:09 PM robert bristow-johnson <
> rbj at audioimagination.com> wrote:
>> Being an electrical engineer that was ABD for a PhD in communications
>> systems and signal processing, I have a little trouble seeing the
>> connection to Shannon Information Theory.  Either in the measure of
>> information content of a message or set of messages or of the definition of
>> entropy or of the capacity of a channel to carry information.
>> So could someone make the connection for me?
>>  I get that set of ordinal ballot data is discrete information and
>> there's some way, such as Huffman coding, to represent that information in
>> the most compact and essential way possible.
>> But I don't see the connection to social choice theory.  Can someone help?
>> robert
>> *Powered by Cric ket Wireless*
>> ------ Original message------
>> *From: *Forest Simmons
>> *Date: *Sat, Jun 4, 2022 4:06 PM
>> *To: *Richard Lung;
>> *Cc: *EM;
>> *Subject:*Re: [EM] Thermodynamics
>> True!
>> Do an internet search of "information mechanics" to confirm the validity
>> of this tight connection.
>> Information mechanics seems to be the key for the "unified field theory"
>> Einstein was looking for ... and more ... unification of classical and
>> quantum fields for all of the forces ... strong, weak, and intermediate...
>> if not a "theory of everything."
>> El sáb., 4 de jun. de 2022 6:26 a. m., Richard Lung <
>> voting at ukscientists.com> escribió:
>>> Forest,
>>> The efficiency of heat engines, in thermodynamics, offer an analogy with
>>> voting methods. Many other sciences do so, if voting method follows the
>>> Stevens structure of measurement, held in common by other branches of
>>> science. (I published a free e-book, about scientific models of election
>>> method, called: Science is Ethics as Electics.)
>>> The basic principle, that thermodynamics and election method have in
>>> common is conservation, either of energy or information. (I believe
>>> scientists are currently translating energy terms into information terms.)
>>> Common-place teachings of social choice theory, including the American
>>> Mathematics Society, usually make the claim that there is no perfect voting
>>> system. The equivalent statement in thermodynamics is that there is no
>>> perpetual motion machine.
>>> As you point out, that does not preclude voting methods of different
>>> efficiency, the equivalent of heat engines of differing efficiency. The
>>> engines depend on efficient transfer of surplus heat, to work requirements,
>>> to keep the engine going. Similarly, transfers of vote surpluses, to
>>> elective quotas, keep the count procedure going. Heat forms a random
>>> distribution of motion. And votes typically form a random distribution of
>>> choice (subject to left or right skews).
>>> Binomial STV would perhaps be rather more efficient than traditional
>>> STV, because it rationally conserves exclusion information. In rough
>>> analogy, a binomial STV “heat engine” is better “insulated,” to conserve
>>> heat. Thermodynamics is not just a dynamic of heat but also its insulation,
>>> in a closed system. Likewise, an election method is not just an active
>>> election, but also a closed system of exclusion.
>>> Regards,
>>> Richard Lung.
>>> ----
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