[EM] Thermodynamics

Forest Simmons forest.simmons21 at gmail.com
Mon Jun 6 14:14:40 PDT 2022

Very interesting in this context and other aspects of voting! Thanks for
the valuable references!

El lun., 6 de jun. de 2022 9:06 a. m., Andy Dienes <andydienes at gmail.com>

> https://arxiv.org/abs/1905.03674
> https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.04228
> These papers may be interesting regarding this discussion.
> On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 1:13 AM robert bristow-johnson <
> rbj at audioimagination.com> wrote:
>> Like in audio data compression, I know the difference between lossy and
>> lossless compression .  I sorta understand where the bits get allocated for
>> the audio spectrum.  Like where it's appropriate to accurately represent
>> the raw data and where we can fudge it a little.
>> I don't know how to do that for voter data without making assumptions or
>> postulates of the data.
>> *Powered by Cricket Wireless*
>> ------ Original message------
>> *From: *Carl Schroedl
>> *Date: *Sun, Jun 5, 2022 1:16 PM
>> *To: *robert bristow-johnson;
>> *Cc: *Forest Simmons;Richard Lung;EM;
>> *Subject:*Re: [EM] Thermodynamics
>> As a software guy, the connection I make is to something I have wondered
>> for a while -- whether it is useful to study social choice functions as
>> lossy compression algorithms. I haven't thought it through, but it could be
>> interesting to see if the rate-distortion branch of information theory
>> would apply.
>> On Sat, Jun 4, 2022, 9:09 PM robert bristow-johnson <
>> rbj at audioimagination.com> wrote:
>>> Being an electrical engineer that was ABD for a PhD in communications
>>> systems and signal processing, I have a little trouble seeing the
>>> connection to Shannon Information Theory.  Either in the measure of
>>> information content of a message or set of messages or of the definition of
>>> entropy or of the capacity of a channel to carry information.
>>> So could someone make the connection for me?
>>>  I get that set of ordinal ballot data is discrete information and
>>> there's some way, such as Huffman coding, to represent that information in
>>> the most compact and essential way possible.
>>> But I don't see the connection to social choice theory.  Can someone
>>> help?
>>> robert
>>> *Powered by Cric ket Wireless*
>>> ------ Original message------
>>> *From: *Forest Simmons
>>> *Date: *Sat, Jun 4, 2022 4:06 PM
>>> *To: *Richard Lung;
>>> *Cc: *EM;
>>> *Subject:*Re: [EM] Thermodynamics
>>> True!
>>> Do an internet search of "information mechanics" to confirm the validity
>>> of this tight connection.
>>> Information mechanics seems to be the key for the "unified field theory"
>>> Einstein was looking for ... and more ... unification of classical and
>>> quantum fields for all of the forces ... strong, weak, and intermediate...
>>> if not a "theory of everything."
>>> El sáb., 4 de jun. de 2022 6:26 a. m., Richard Lung <
>>> voting at ukscientists.com> escribió:
>>>> Forest,
>>>> The efficiency of heat engines, in thermodynamics, offer an analogy
>>>> with voting methods. Many other sciences do so, if voting method follows
>>>> the Stevens structure of measurement, held in common by other branches of
>>>> science. (I published a free e-book, about scientific models of election
>>>> method, called: Science is Ethics as Electics.)
>>>> The basic principle, that thermodynamics and election method have in
>>>> common is conservation, either of energy or information. (I believe
>>>> scientists are currently translating energy terms into information terms.)
>>>> Common-place teachings of social choice theory, including the American
>>>> Mathematics Society, usually make the claim that there is no perfect voting
>>>> system. The equivalent statement in thermodynamics is that there is no
>>>> perpetual motion machine.
>>>> As you point out, that does not preclude voting methods of different
>>>> efficiency, the equivalent of heat engines of differing efficiency. The
>>>> engines depend on efficient transfer of surplus heat, to work requirements,
>>>> to keep the engine going. Similarly, transfers of vote surpluses, to
>>>> elective quotas, keep the count procedure going. Heat forms a random
>>>> distribution of motion. And votes typically form a random distribution of
>>>> choice (subject to left or right skews).
>>>> Binomial STV would perhaps be rather more efficient than traditional
>>>> STV, because it rationally conserves exclusion information. In rough
>>>> analogy, a binomial STV “heat engine” is better “insulated,” to conserve
>>>> heat. Thermodynamics is not just a dynamic of heat but also its insulation,
>>>> in a closed system. Likewise, an election method is not just an active
>>>> election, but also a closed system of exclusion.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Richard Lung.
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