<div dir="ltr"><a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/1905.03674">https://arxiv.org/abs/1905.03674</a><br><div><a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.04228">https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.04228</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>These papers may be interesting regarding this discussion.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 1:13 AM robert bristow-johnson <<a href="mailto:rbj@audioimagination.com">rbj@audioimagination.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div style="font-size:10pt"><div dir="auto">Like in audio data compression, I know the difference between lossy and lossless compression . I sorta understand where the bits get allocated for the audio spectrum. Like where it's appropriate to accurately represent the raw data and where we can fudge it a little.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I don't know how to do that for voter data without making assumptions or postulates of the data.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><div dir="auto"><i>Powered by Cricket Wireless</i></div></div></div><div style="font-size:10pt"><div id="gmail-m_-7686043627152087232LGEmailHeader" dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">------ Original message------</div><div dir="auto"><b>From: </b>Carl Schroedl<u></u><u></u></div><div dir="auto"><b>Date: </b>Sun, Jun 5, 2022 1:16 PM</div><div dir="auto"><b>To: </b>robert bristow-johnson;</div><div dir="auto"><b>Cc: </b>Forest Simmons;Richard Lung;EM;</div><div dir="auto"><b>Subject:</b>Re: [EM] Thermodynamics</div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><div dir="auto"><div>As a software guy, the connection I make is to something I have wondered for a while -- whether it is useful to study social choice functions as lossy compression algorithms. I haven't thought it through, but it could be interesting to see if the rate-distortion branch of information theory would apply.</div><div dir="auto"><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jun 4, 2022, 9:09 PM robert bristow-johnson <<a href="mailto:rbj@audioimagination.com" target="_blank">rbj@audioimagination.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div style="font-size:10pt"><div dir="auto">Being an electrical engineer that was ABD for a PhD in communications systems and signal processing, I have a little trouble seeing the connection to Shannon Information Theory. Either in the measure of information content of a message or set of messages or of the definition of entropy or of the capacity of a channel to carry information.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">So could someone make the connection for me?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"> I get that set of ordinal ballot data is discrete information and there's some way, such as Huffman coding, to represent that information in the most compact and essential way possible.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">But I don't see the connection to social choice theory. Can someone help?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">robert</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><div dir="auto"><i>Powered by Cric
ket Wireless</i></div></div></div><div style="font-size:10pt"><div id="gmail-m_-7686043627152087232m_7916158861910405664LGEmailHeader" dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">------ Original message------</div><div dir="auto"><b>From: </b>Forest Simmons<u></u><u></u></div><div dir="auto"><b>Date: </b>Sat, Jun 4, 2022 4:06 PM</div><div dir="auto"><b>To: </b>Richard Lung;</div><div dir="auto"><b>Cc: </b>EM;</div><div dir="auto"><b>Subject:</b>Re: [EM] Thermodynamics</div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><div dir="auto">True!<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Do an internet search of "information mechanics" to confirm the validity of this tight connection.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Information mechanics seems to be the key for the "unified field theory" Einstein was looking for ... and more ... unification of classical and quantum fields for all of the forces ... strong, weak, and intermediate... if not a "theory of everything."</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">El sáb., 4 de jun. de 2022 6:26 a. m., Richard Lung <<a href="mailto:voting@ukscientists.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">voting@ukscientists.com</a>> escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Forest</span><span>,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The
efficiency of heat engines, in thermodynamics, offer an analogy
with voting
methods. Many other sciences do so, if voting method follows the
Stevens
structure of measurement, held in common by other branches of
science. (I
published a free e-book, about scientific models of election
method, called:
Science is Ethics as Electics.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The
basic principle, that thermodynamics and election method have in
common is
conservation, either of energy or information. (I believe
scientists are
currently translating energy terms into information terms.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Common-place
teachings of social choice theory, including the American
Mathematics Society,
usually make the claim that there is no perfect voting system.
The equivalent
statement in thermodynamics is that there is no perpetual motion
machine.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>As
you point out, that does not preclude voting methods of
different efficiency,
the equivalent of heat engines of differing efficiency. The
engines depend on
efficient transfer of surplus heat, to work requirements, to
keep the engine
going. Similarly, transfers of vote surpluses, to elective
quotas, keep the
count procedure going. Heat forms a random distribution of
motion. And votes
typically form a random distribution of choice (subject to left
or right
skews).</span></p>
<p><span>Binomial STV
would perhaps
be rather more efficient than traditional STV, because it
rationally conserves
exclusion information. In rough analogy, a binomial STV “heat
engine” is better
“insulated,” to conserve heat. Thermodynamics is not just a
dynamic of heat but
also its insulation, in a closed system. Likewise, an election
method is not
just an active election, but also a closed system of exclusion.</span></p>
<p><span><br>
</span></p>
<p><span>Regards,</span></p>
<p><span>Richard
Lung.</span></p>
<p><span><br>
</span></p>
<p></p>
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