[EM] Response to Kevin Venzke's response

[Doreen Dotan]

B"H

 

Kevin Venzke wrote:

 

"I didn't quite get what you were saying here, since the U.S. and Switzerland are both federal systems." 

 

It is true that both Switzerland and the US have federal gov'ts, but their relative forms of democracy are radically different. Citizens in a direct democracy have full legislative rights. In a representative democracy, like the US and most Western democracies these rights are exerted only by elected representative.  

 

Switzerland is a consociational state. The cantons that developed not only allowed the citizens to remain in direct political control over their fate, but also laid strife between Catholics and Protestants and among the German, French, Italian and Romanian factions in Switzerland.  Thus, Switzerland remained a German-speaking country, with a Germanic culture and heritage, while enclaves were created that allowed the minorities free religious, linguistic and cultural expression.  The result of that is very interesting. If one looks at the demographic data of the cantons s/he will see that they are made up of a rather large number of foreigners.  Paradoxically, the creation of monocultural enclaves (the cantons) allowed peace to reign and xenophobia was laid to rest. The following link provides a good intro to the charms of the Swiss system:  http://www.isil.org/resources/lit/swiss-canton-system.html

 

"Not being a fan of federalism, particularly in small countries, I have some other thoughts."

By all means, share them!  Neither am I a fan of federalism. For me the Swiss model is the least of all federal evils. I am an anarchist - a real one and a realistic one.  That means that I am neither a new-fangled "anarcho-capitalist" or "left libertarian", both of whose programmes make my hair stand up on end. The central lesson that I have learned from the 20th C. is that if people are presented with a political system which is beyond their moral ken and ability to discipline themselves within they will go to hell in a handbag with themselves and wind up with a system worse than the one they overthrew. On this list one of the central problems, if not the central problem, of finding better election methods is the problem of sincere voting.  If Human beings have not yet arrived at the point of being able to vote sincerely they most certainly cannot handle anarchy. However, we can gently urge them toward that goal, improving the system we have step by step - and the system we
  have,
 like it or not, is federalism.

"Are you saying you just want the federal government to be quite weak?"

As weak as absolutely possible without making people feel unprotected and giving them more reign and rein than they can cope with.

"A link on that topic: http://www2.hawaii.edu/~fredr/isracon.htm"

I read the link you provided, Kevin. Thank you. As with all outsiders' commentary, it was, well, something like almost right. I think it's always best for people to effect change at home, in the system they are living with. We can exchange ideas, certainly, that is why I've joined this list; but I've never once read a paternalistic "analysis" of the Israeli system written by an outsider who has no vested interest in the country that really hit the mark. 

For instance, I am most certainly going to look into SRV and see if it can be applied somehow to our system of government here in Israel, but I shan't be making recommendations to ROI as to how to manage their state any time soon, that given the fact that I am a citizen of that country.  I do not live there and do not feel it is my place to proffer critiques about their form of democracy. I have quite enough on my own plate, as I am sure the author of the link above has in his country. 

It may be impossible to discuss voting methods without discussing forms of democracy, but I think it is apposite, at least for me, to discuss the various democratic systems, such as they are, only insofar as they serve voting systems, and not discuss voting systems as an excuse to level surreptitious criticism at a country, as the author of the above link clearly did.

Where are you from, BTW?

"2. If the MPs seem too remote or detached from actual voters, it might be better
for Israel to use some proportional method other than a closed party list. STV,
or party list with SNTV, would give voters more control over who gets seated.
In
any case I would lower the district magnitude, though."

Yes, Kevin.  I'm going to take a few days off from writing and spend some time reading. A number of very interesting-sounding leads have been presented to me by members of this list and I should like to investigate them before posting further.

I am delighted by the discussion here.  This list is a splendid example of people pooling and sharing their intelligence to advance the Human condition.

Doreen

 

 

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