re:[EM] The Allure of IRV

[hager2002 at lsh107.siteprotect.com]

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Alex Small wrote:

> I concur with Adam.  Once you support ranking, unless you've heard of
> Condorcet the runoff idea makes intuitive sense, since plenty of places in
> the US use 2-stage runoff.  The question is how to sell Condorcet over IRV.

I concur also...

> 
> My original message was prompted by an argument with a very intelligent
> person who heard of an election in Ireland where IRV happened to find the
> centrist.  She concluded (justifiably) that if France had used IRV instead
> of two-stage runoff the final round would likely have had at least one
> liberal or moderate rather than two conservatives.  A liberal vs. a
> conservative may or may not be as good as a centrist vs. one of those, but
> it offers more freedom of choice than conservative vs. ultra-conservative.
> 
> I tried Hitler-Stalin-Washington on her (not those names, but that idea)
> but she pointed to the Irish example.  She is very intelligent.  However,
> take the intuitive notion of runoffs and combine it with an anecdote of a
> very good result under IRV, and even a very intelligent person like my
> fellow student will be difficult to persuade.
> 
> (It probably doesn't help that I'm a Libertarian and hence I frequently
> clash with her on politics.  If people don't like the messenger the message
> will fall on deaf ears.  Hence it's important for people from different
> third parties to collaborate when selling Approval or Condorcet.)
> 
> I tried summability, thinking that an engineer would appreciate the
> difference between exponential scaling and n^2 scaling.  She didn't care.
> I said that the Condorcet candidate is by definition the one whom the
> electorate prefers.  She said "Well, it seemed to work pretty well in
> Ireland."
> 
> Any thoughts on how to overcome the tag-team combo of IRV's seemingly
> intuitive nature and IRV anecdotes?  I'm sure CVD is collecting such
> stories.
> 

Ask her if she believes in democracy.  When she says "yes" then ask if she 
believes that, in a democracy, the majority of people should be able to 
choose their leaders.  Presumably, she'll say "yes" to that as well.  Ask 
if she'd like a voting system that will ALWAYS find the candidate 
preferred by the majority.  Once she says "yes" to that, I think you're 
well on the way.  You can save discussions about cyclical majorities or 
other wrinkles for later.

I like to point out that Condorcet is the standard by which other voting 
methods are measured.  

An analogy I like to use is to imagine two races cars that, to the eye, 
are identical.  However, when you open the respective hoods, one has a 
lawnmower engine and the other a 500 hp v-8.  The car with the lawnmower 
is IRV.  The v-8 is Condorcet.

> Alex
> 
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-- 
paul hager		hager2002 at hager2002.org

"The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason."
			-- Thomas Paine, THE AGE OF REASON

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