[EM] What would Tom impose, and how?

MIKE OSSIPOFF nkklrp at hotmail.com
Wed Apr 4 17:30:25 PDT 2001

>I'm sorry, but when I'm advocating change, I'm imposing my views on others.

You should be sorry, if you're imposing your views on others.

>I don't feel I have the right to demand two full votes for two candidates 
>a competitive elections if others complain that they only get one vote
>because they only have one favorite.

As I just said, if the voting public adopt Approval via initiative,
then no one is imposing it on them.

If anyone complains because you cast two votes, and they only cast one,
tell them to cast more votes. They only have one favorite? I only have
one favorite too, even if I cast 2 votes. The person who doesn't need
to vote for a compromise, because their favorite has a win, those voters
are the ones who are advantaged. The one who votes for a compromise
in addition to favorite, that person is in a worse position, and it's
odd that you think he should be envied.

And that 1-vote complainer _is_ casting more than one vote. S/he is
voting ratings of 1 or 0 for every candidate in the election. If there
are 10 candidates, then s/he is casting 10 votes of 1 or 0.

And again, our current Pluarality system requires us to vote "This
candidate is better than that set of candidates." Approval lets us
do that, but is more general in allowing us to say "This set of candidates 
is better than that set of candidates."

Note that Plurality allows (requires) a set in the second part of that
statement. Why does it bother you if Approval allows a set in both
parts of that statement? Why is it ok to allow a set in the 2nd part
of the statement, but not in the 1st part?

>Approval gives people 10 votes among 10 candidates, but denies people the
>right to put more than one vote per candidate. If approval were truly a
>single election, voters ought to be able to put all 10 votes anywhere, like
>cumulative voting.

That's asinine. Who are you to say what an election is? Approval
is a point system that allows a voter to give each candidate a vote
of 0 or 1. Approval allows a voter to vote one set of candidates over
another set of candidates. So often, ignorance is accompanied by
arrogance. It's more than a little arrogant for you to say what
a voting systems rules "ought to" be, unless you can cite a compelling
criterion or standard.

And anyone stupid enough to cast 10 Approval votes in a 10-candidate
election deserves what they get: no influence on the outcome.

>If approval is considered 10 independent elections, then it is fair in that

Except (sometimes) by you, Approval is not considered 10 separrate

If we are measuring which parties deserve public funding, or
>inclusion into public debates, approval is a wonderful method because there
>can be many winners

Wrong. In a public election, it's vanishingly improbable to get more
than 1 winner. In a small committee, any method is likely to return
more than 1 winner, Approval no more so than other methods.

and the government can always allocate more money to

>Approval is a rating system. Plurality, generalized, is a cumulative system
>(fixed votes).  Like Don said, if you want to support 2 candidates, give
>them both half of your voting power. This is what happens in cumulative 

Well if Don said to do that, then you, Tom, should do it.

But, again, that brings us back to the ignorant arrogance that says
that voting systems should be the cumulative system, and rating systems
are a no-no.

>I CAN defend Unranked IRV on the grounds that as a voter, I ought to have a
>right to split by support among two candidates. This is a very practical
>choice in Instant runoffs. I am not taking more than anyone else, just
>changing how I wish to use my vote. Demanding this right is imposing on the
>vote counters perhaps, but not other voters.

Giving all the voters the right to rate each candidate 0 or 1, or
to vote any set of candidates over any other set of candidates--how
does that impose on anyone?

>Approval can't be defended in the same way because it gives new power to
>some, but not others.

In Approval, any voter has the power to cancel out any other voter.
Every voter has the same power to cast any ratings they want to,
or whatever vote between any two sets of candidates they want to.

But Tom has shown us something: Sometimes the common Joe sixpack might
have a difficult time accepting Approval, just as he might have a
difficult time choosing an adequate rank-count.

So, for acceptance for the common, ignorant people represented here by
Tom, I suggest that CR is going to be much better accepted and understood 
than Approval, and more easily understood than the choice
between rank-counts.

CR has the advantage of already being familiar & popular.

So thank you, Tom, for demonstrating what voting systems will be
difficult for people of your type to accept. This is the kind of thing
that is valuable to find out, for choosing a single-winner reform

Mike Ossipoff

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