[EM] Reply to an IRVist post on December 17th

[Michael Garman]

The only situation in which the ballot doesn't count for your next-ranked
choice is when it is still active for your first-ranked choice. Oops!!

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:25 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I didn’t say that your vote counts for the Republican. I told how
> FairVote’s promise is a lie, because ballot didn’t help the Democrat, your
>  next-ranked choice.
>
> The Republican won because you ranked the Green 1st.  RCV has the spoiler
> problem, & FairVote’s promise is a lie.
>
> I don’t have time for this.
>
> This discussion with IRV cultists is concluded.
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 12:04 Michael Garman <michael.garman at rankthevote.us>
> wrote:
>
>> Are you being deliberately dense here?
>>
>> The scenario, as you've laid it out, is as follows:
>>
>> There are *three* candidates: G, D, and R. You rank G > D > R.
>>
>> If R is eliminated first, the final tally is between G and D. Your vote
>> counts for your first choice, G.
>>
>> If D is eliminated first, the final tally is between G and R. Your vote
>> counts for your first choice, G.
>>
>> If G is eliminated first, the final tally is between D and R. Your vote
>> counts for your second choice, D.
>>
>> Thus, your vote doesn't count for R under any circumstance. Oops!!
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:02 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:57 Michael Garman <
>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Okay, so G can't win. Move your eyes up to the very previous sentence I
>>>> wrote.
>>>>
>>>> > If G is eliminated first, your ballot counts for D vs. R in round 2.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes: “IF”.
>>>
>>> Oops!! FairVote forgot to say “maybe” or “if…”.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:55 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:41 Michael Garman <
>>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If D is eliminated first, your ballot counts for G vs. R in round 2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The promise was about when 1st choice can’t win. When it’s determined
>>>>> that Green’s votecount loses to Republican’s votecount, Your next-ranked
>>>>> choice, the Democrat, is no longer there. Contrary to FairVote’s promise,
>>>>> you didn’t help hir.
>>>>>
>>>>> The dishonesty of that false promise is recognized throughout the
>>>>> electoral reform movement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Continuing to talk to a cult-Irvist is pointless.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:39 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:26 Michael Garman <
>>>>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your next choice is your next highest choice in the running. That’s
>>>>>>>> pretty self-evident.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, what’s evident is that FairVote promises that, if your favorite
>>>>>>> is the Green, & you rank sincerely, Green>Democrat>Republican, your ballot
>>>>>>> will count for the Democrat if the Green can’t win.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No one but you interprets it to mean that your ballot will help your
>>>>>>> 3rd-choice, the Republican to win.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No one but you interprets that promise to mean the Republican as
>>>>>>> your next choice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your dishonest contortions are cultish.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I did forget about EqualVote, but what has EqualVote accomplished?
>>>>>>>> Honest question. I haven’t seen anything of a grassroots presence from
>>>>>>>> them. If I’m wrong, correct me — their mission is admirable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It’s certainly not a stretch to say that the overwhelming majority
>>>>>>>> of legislative and ballot-measure electoral reform accomplishments belong
>>>>>>>> to FairVote and allies.
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:22 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your next choice after your 1st choice is your 2nd-choice, who is
>>>>>>>>> no longer there when your 1st choice is determined to lose.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your next remaining choice at that time is Worst, your 3rd choice.
>>>>>>>>> That wasn’t FairVote’s promise.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> EqualVote has been “out there doing the work”.  …but without all
>>>>>>>>> the wealth that did the work for FairVote. EqualVote are a newer
>>>>>>>>> organization, & therefore haven’t been “doing the work” for as long.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I merely question the honesty & morality of how FairVote has been
>>>>>>>>> “doing the work”.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:08 Michael Garman <
>>>>>>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> “Our cult” are the only people actually out there doing the work.
>>>>>>>>>> Try talking to voters instead of hiding behind your keyboard sometime. I
>>>>>>>>>> recommend it :)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Show me where FairVote explicitly states “second choice” rather
>>>>>>>>>> than “next choice.”
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:59 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Evidently it’s necessary to repeat that, no, that isn’t what
>>>>>>>>>>> FairVote promises. They promise that your ballot will count toward your
>>>>>>>>>>> 2nd-choice. Not the same thing. Your ballot, & its 2nd-choice ranking of
>>>>>>>>>>> your 2nd-choice didn’t help your 2nd choice.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your last remaining choice? Undeniably your last remaining
>>>>>>>>>>> choice WINS, because your 3rd choice is the only remaining one when all of
>>>>>>>>>>> your other choices have lost.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Congratulations, you have the election of your last remaining
>>>>>>>>>>> choice !!!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> …by your strained dishonest argument.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your cult isn’t part of the electoral-reform movement.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The leaders of several single-winner-reform organizations met in
>>>>>>>>>>> New Orleans, & in that meeting, some of them called Rob Richie on the lie.
>>>>>>>>>>> Richie promised to stop telling the lie in his promotion of RCV.  …but soon
>>>>>>>>>>> resumed doing so.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How do you want me to prove it. It was told to me by someone who
>>>>>>>>>>> was there. Sara Wolk, the Director of the EqualVote Coalition.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Shall I ask her for the date of the meeting? I will. Shall I ask
>>>>>>>>>>> her for the names of the other participants too? I’ll do that too.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We wouldn’t want to lie, would we :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 10:38 Michael Garman <
>>>>>>>>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your ballot helps your highest remaining choice. That's what
>>>>>>>>>>>> FairVote promises. Back when this conversation was active in December, you
>>>>>>>>>>>> cheerfully promised to immediately deliver receipts substantiating your
>>>>>>>>>>>> claims of deception and failed to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:33 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Call it what you want, but Worst wins because you ranked Best
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1st instead of ranking Good 1st.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Contrary to FairVote’s promise, your ballot doesn’t help your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2nd choice when your favorite is unable to win, because your 2nd choice is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no longer there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> FairVote’s promise is an intentional false-statement. We have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a word for intentional false statements. It’s called a lie.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> When a lie is used to sell a product to a trusting buyer, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a word for that too. It’s called fraud.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 08:07 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But if we're being precise, Best could never be "eliminated"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in your scenario. There would be only two candidates left, and so the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tallying would necessarily end in that round with two candidates. Anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who ranked Best>Good>Worst would have their ballot counted towards Best in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the final round, after Good is eliminated. It would never be counted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 8:50 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg—
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In my example, I said that first Good gets eliminated, &
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then Best gets eliminated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So all that remains is Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I made a typo in my post. I meant to say that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good-supporters either didn’t vote a 2nd choice, or else their 2nd-choice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transfer was to  Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …but, when wrote that, I accidentally said
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> “Best-supporters”, when I meant “Good-supporters”.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 17:18 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hold on a second, if Good gets eliminated, there are only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two candidates (Best and Worst) remaining, and whichever of those two with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most votes wins. That sample ballot counts for "Best" in the final
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round -- it is never counted for "Worst."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024, 5:15 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it [your ballot] doesn't[count for your 2nd choice] ,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unless your 2nd choice is still there. Oops !!! You &
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richie forgot to include the word "Maybe"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Garman said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fine…it counts for your next highest choice still in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running. Which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also a reasonable interpretation of the “next choice”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language you cite.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Satisfied?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that person have any idea what he’s saying?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Say the election is between Best, Good, &Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You rank Best>Good>Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good gets eliminated first, & then Best gets eliminated, &
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either hir ballots don’t have a 2nd choice, or hir
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transfers go to Worst. According to our friend here, now Good is no longer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your 2nd choice. The elimination of Good makes Worst your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2nd choice, & so FairVote’s promise is kept:  Your 2nd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choice, Worst is elected !!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, but wait, it gets even better:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Worst isn’t only your 2nd choice now:  By our IRVist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friend’s definition of “choice”, now Worst becomes your 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> st choice (because he’s the only remaining candidate).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Congratulations !! You’ve elected your 1st choice, Worst
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> !!!~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ladies & Gentlemen of the jury: I present to you exhibit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> B, further confirmation of the universal astounding dishonesty of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> promotion of RCV.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://electorama.com/em for list info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Greg Dennis, Ph.D. :: Policy Director*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Voter Choice Massachusetts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e :: greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> p :: 617.835.9161
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> w :: voterchoicema.org <https://www.voterchoicema.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :: Follow us on Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/yeson2rcv>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  and Twitter <https://twitter.com/yeson2rcv> ::
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for list info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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