[EM] Reply to an IRVist post on December 17th

Mon Feb 5 12:24:50 PST 2024

I didn’t say that your vote counts for the Republican. I told how
FairVote’s promise is a lie, because ballot didn’t help the Democrat, your
 next-ranked choice.

The Republican won because you ranked the Green 1st.  RCV has the spoiler
problem, & FairVote’s promise is a lie.

I don’t have time for this.

This discussion with IRV cultists is concluded.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 12:04 Michael Garman <michael.garman at rankthevote.us>
wrote:

> Are you being deliberately dense here?
>
> The scenario, as you've laid it out, is as follows:
>
> There are *three* candidates: G, D, and R. You rank G > D > R.
>
> If R is eliminated first, the final tally is between G and D. Your vote
> counts for your first choice, G.
>
> If D is eliminated first, the final tally is between G and R. Your vote
> counts for your first choice, G.
>
> If G is eliminated first, the final tally is between D and R. Your vote
> counts for your second choice, D.
>
> Thus, your vote doesn't count for R under any circumstance. Oops!!
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:02 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:57 Michael Garman <
>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>
>>> Okay, so G can't win. Move your eyes up to the very previous sentence I
>>> wrote.
>>>
>>> > If G is eliminated first, your ballot counts for D vs. R in round 2.
>>>
>>
>> Yes: “IF”.
>>
>> Oops!! FairVote forgot to say “maybe” or “if…”.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:55 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:41 Michael Garman <
>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If D is eliminated first, your ballot counts for G vs. R in round 2.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The promise was about when 1st choice can’t win. When it’s determined
>>>> that Green’s votecount loses to Republican’s votecount, Your next-ranked
>>>> choice, the Democrat, is no longer there. Contrary to FairVote’s promise,
>>>> you didn’t help hir.
>>>>
>>>> The dishonesty of that false promise is recognized throughout the
>>>> electoral reform movement.
>>>>
>>>> Continuing to talk to a cult-Irvist is pointless.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:39 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:26 Michael Garman <
>>>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your next choice is your next highest choice in the running. That’s
>>>>>>> pretty self-evident.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, what’s evident is that FairVote promises that, if your favorite
>>>>>> is the Green, & you rank sincerely, Green>Democrat>Republican, your ballot
>>>>>> will count for the Democrat if the Green can’t win.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No one but you interprets it to mean that your ballot will help your
>>>>>> 3rd-choice, the Republican to win.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No one but you interprets that promise to mean the Republican as your
>>>>>> next choice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your dishonest contortions are cultish.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I did forget about EqualVote, but what has EqualVote accomplished?
>>>>>>> Honest question. I haven’t seen anything of a grassroots presence from
>>>>>>> them. If I’m wrong, correct me — their mission is admirable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s certainly not a stretch to say that the overwhelming majority
>>>>>>> of legislative and ballot-measure electoral reform accomplishments belong
>>>>>>> to FairVote and allies.
>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 8:22 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your next choice after your 1st choice is your 2nd-choice, who is
>>>>>>>> no longer there when your 1st choice is determined to lose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your next remaining choice at that time is Worst, your 3rd choice.
>>>>>>>> That wasn’t FairVote’s promise.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> EqualVote has been “out there doing the work”.  …but without all
>>>>>>>> the wealth that did the work for FairVote. EqualVote are a newer
>>>>>>>> organization, & therefore haven’t been “doing the work” for as long.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I merely question the honesty & morality of how FairVote has been
>>>>>>>> “doing the work”.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 11:08 Michael Garman <
>>>>>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “Our cult” are the only people actually out there doing the work.
>>>>>>>>> Try talking to voters instead of hiding behind your keyboard sometime. I
>>>>>>>>> recommend it :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Show me where FairVote explicitly states “second choice” rather
>>>>>>>>> than “next choice.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:59 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Evidently it’s necessary to repeat that, no, that isn’t what
>>>>>>>>>> FairVote promises. They promise that your ballot will count toward your
>>>>>>>>>> 2nd-choice. Not the same thing. Your ballot, & its 2nd-choice ranking of
>>>>>>>>>> your 2nd-choice didn’t help your 2nd choice.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your last remaining choice? Undeniably your last remaining choice
>>>>>>>>>> WINS, because your 3rd choice is the only remaining one when all of your
>>>>>>>>>> other choices have lost.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Congratulations, you have the election of your last remaining
>>>>>>>>>> choice !!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> …by your strained dishonest argument.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your cult isn’t part of the electoral-reform movement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The leaders of several single-winner-reform organizations met in
>>>>>>>>>> New Orleans, & in that meeting, some of them called Rob Richie on the lie.
>>>>>>>>>> Richie promised to stop telling the lie in his promotion of RCV.  …but soon
>>>>>>>>>> resumed doing so.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How do you want me to prove it. It was told to me by someone who
>>>>>>>>>> was there. Sara Wolk, the Director of the EqualVote Coalition.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Shall I ask her for the date of the meeting? I will. Shall I ask
>>>>>>>>>> her for the names of the other participants too? I’ll do that too.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We wouldn’t want to lie, would we :-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 10:38 Michael Garman <
>>>>>>>>>> michael.garman at rankthevote.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your ballot helps your highest remaining choice. That's what
>>>>>>>>>>> FairVote promises. Back when this conversation was active in December, you
>>>>>>>>>>> cheerfully promised to immediately deliver receipts substantiating your
>>>>>>>>>>> claims of deception and failed to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 7:33 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Call it what you want, but Worst wins because you ranked Best
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1st instead of ranking Good 1st.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Contrary to FairVote’s promise, your ballot doesn’t help your
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2nd choice when your favorite is unable to win, because your 2nd choice is
>>>>>>>>>>>> no longer there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> FairVote’s promise is an intentional false-statement. We have a
>>>>>>>>>>>> word for intentional false statements. It’s called a lie.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> When a lie is used to sell a product to a trusting buyer, we
>>>>>>>>>>>> have a word for that too. It’s called fraud.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 08:07 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>>>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But if we're being precise, Best could never be "eliminated"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in your scenario. There would be only two candidates left, and so the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tallying would necessarily end in that round with two candidates. Anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who ranked Best>Good>Worst would have their ballot counted towards Best in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the final round, after Good is eliminated. It would never be counted
>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 8:50 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg—
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In my example, I said that first Good gets eliminated, & then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best gets eliminated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So all that remains is Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I made a typo in my post. I meant to say that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good-supporters either didn’t vote a 2nd choice, or else their 2nd-choice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transfer was to  Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …but, when wrote that, I accidentally said “Best-supporters”,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when I meant “Good-supporters”.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 17:18 Greg Dennis <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hold on a second, if Good gets eliminated, there are only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two candidates (Best and Worst) remaining, and whichever of those two with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most votes wins. That sample ballot counts for "Best" in the final
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round -- it is never counted for "Worst."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024, 5:15 PM Michael Ossipoff <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email9648742 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it [your ballot] doesn't[count for your 2nd choice] ,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unless your 2nd choice is still there. Oops !!! You &
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richie forgot to include the word "Maybe"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Garman said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fine…it counts for your next highest choice still in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running. Which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also a reasonable interpretation of the “next choice”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language you cite.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Satisfied?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that person have any idea what he’s saying?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Say the election is between Best, Good, &Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You rank Best>Good>Worst.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good gets eliminated first, & then Best gets eliminated, &
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either hir ballots don’t have a 2nd choice, or hir
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transfers go to Worst. According to our friend here, now Good is no longer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your 2nd choice. The elimination of Good makes Worst your 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nd choice, & so FairVote’s promise is kept:  Your 2nd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choice, Worst is elected !!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, but wait, it gets even better:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Worst isn’t only your 2nd choice now:  By our IRVist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friend’s definition of “choice”, now Worst becomes your 1st
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choice (because he’s the only remaining candidate).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Congratulations !! You’ve elected your 1st choice, Worst
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> !!!~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ladies & Gentlemen of the jury: I present to you exhibit B,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> further confirmation of the universal astounding dishonesty of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> promotion of RCV.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://electorama.com/em for list info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Greg Dennis, Ph.D. :: Policy Director*
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Voter Choice Massachusetts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> e :: greg.dennis at voterchoicema.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> p :: 617.835.9161
>>>>>>>>>>>>> w :: voterchoicema.org <https://www.voterchoicema.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> :: Follow us on Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/yeson2rcv>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  and Twitter <https://twitter.com/yeson2rcv> ::
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em
>>>>>>>>>>>> for list info
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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