[EM] Second order proportional representation.

VoteFair ElectionMethods at VoteFair.org
Sun Sep 18 13:54:45 PDT 2016

On 9/16/2016 2:47 AM, Juho Laatu wrote:

 > So, where are the practical guidebooks if Condorcet methods
 > are so vulnerable to all he strategies?

Good point!

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that when someone points out a 
vulnerability in a Condorcet method, it's an edge case.  And edge cases 
seldom happen in real elections where there are more than a few dozen 
independently acting voters.

I tend to think of election-method vulnerabilities in terms of how often 
a specific vulnerability can/could occur -- rather than yes/no 
checklists of whether a vulnerability is possible.

If this concept were converted into visual maps of where the edge cases 
and vulnerabilities are, the difference between unfair methods 
(plurality) and medium-quality methods and the best/fairest methods 
would stand out clearly.

Richard Fobes

On 9/16/2016 2:47 AM, Juho Laatu wrote:
> Few random observations follow.
> - Rankings may be too simplifying when forming a cabinet. I think it is typical that some grouping agrees on a program, and then one forms a (majority, multiparty) government/cabinet based on what was the best identified program and majority supporting that program in the parliament. A mechanistic ranking based approach to form the cabinet might be a too straight forward approach for this. Or maybe the idea was to form totally new kind of cabinets (whose structure could not be negotiated by politicians).
> - But instead of electing directly the cabinet members, one could use ranked methods also to elect the best government coalition. The candidates could be e.g. A-B-C, A-B and B-C-D, where A, B, C and D are different parties.
> - Also not using ranked methods might lead to ranking method style strategic voting. I mean that if the alternatives are A, B and C, and there is a ABCA preference loop, then it may be up to the chairman which alternative will win. If chairman's own party prefers alternative A, then it would make sense to first decide (using plurality) whether B or C is favoured. B wins. And then B will lose to A in the final plurality voting.
> - I tend to think that Condorcet strategies are quite difficult to apply successfully even in environments where the opinions of all the voters are quite well known, and when there is a strong party discipline that can be used to force MPs to vote in some particular way (either against their own will, or to strategically support their own targets). There are strategical vulnerabilities (always, for sure), but I still have not seen any good article on how voters (individual voters alone, or party leaders with the help of party discipline) could successfully apply strategies in Condorcet elections. I'm waiting for someone to write it, or otherwise give general guidance on how the system can be cheated (without too much risk of bad results). The fact that sometimes it is possible to see afterwards that some strategy would have worked is not enough (assuming 100% information on how everyone will vote, and still with ability to change afterwards the votes of oneself and other m
>   ers of one's own party). I'm assuming that there is no 100% accurate information on the preferences of other voters / parties, and there is no 100% accurate information on what strategies each party is planning to apply. So, where are the practical guidebooks if Condorcet methods are so vulnerable to all he strategies?
> Juho
>> On 16 Sep 2016, at 09:52, Kristofer Munsterhjelm<km_elmet at t-online.de>  wrote:
>> On 09/16/2016 05:52 AM, VoteFair wrote:
>>> On 9/14/2016 1:06 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm wrote:
>>>> I just read about an interesting idea in this vein by Brams. First you
>>>> pick your legislature (using whatever method), then once a majority of
>>>> the parties decide to form a government, the parties sequentially claim
>>>> ministries according to an order given by a divisor method.
>>> Here is yet another approach:
>>> http://www.negotiationtool.com/cabinetministers.html
>>> The MPs (members of parliament) rank their preferences for possible
>>> cabinet members, and then a variation of VoteFair ranking calculations
>>> fills the cabinet positions.
>>> It mostly uses the algorithms explained at VoteFair.org
>>> (http://www.votefair.org/calculation_details.html).  Of course a few
>>> modifications are needed.
>>> Have questions?  Please ask.  But be patient because I'm writing a
>>> time-sensitive election article that I will announce later.
>> I've always had the impression that ranked voting isn't going to work in
>> parliamentary settings because the MPs will feel obligated to strategize
>> maximally to get what they want, and there are few enough of them that
>> it is possible to do so.
>> In a system with strong party discipline, the party leaders or whips
>> could very well order their respective MPs to vote in a particular way.
>> Am I wrong when making that assumption?
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