[EM] Alexander Praetorius, regarding Frome, U.K.
citizen at serapath.de
Sat Jul 18 13:09:20 PDT 2015
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Fred Gohlke <fredgohlke at verizon.net> wrote:
> Good Afternoon, Alexander
> We know our views differ. These comments are a different way of looking
> at some of the topics you raised.
> To the best of my knowledge, in the so-called 'democracies' that presently
> exist, votes are cast by human individuals. I know of no instance where
> votes are cast by money.
*Spending Money equals Voting in general!*
=> You delegate power to the person you pay
=> The paid person can then make other people do things by spending it again
This is what moves people every day and shapes reality.
> We know that money can be used to buy votes but that does not move us
> closer to democracy than we are at present. Quite the reverse.
*Spending Money equals Voting in general!!*
=> You are elected by being paid
=> You can then decide how others should shape reality, by paying, thus
"spending votes" on whatever change you want to see (e.g. a cake being
baked for you)
This is what moves people every day and shapes reality.
> Using money to buy hula hoops is certainly one way of voting with money,
> but it has drawbacks. For one, it tends to lead to 'conspicuous
> consumption' by those who exploit the system better than their peers.
I don't understand what you mean by that.
> For another, it is not available to those who need their resources to feed
> their families; those who "work for cheap under horrible conditions".
=> There is *"Fairytale Democracy"* (you delegate "a vote" indirectly once
every couple of years to a group/person with (in practice) a lot of money
and influence and give him/her a "blank cheque")
=> There is "Real Democracy" (every human participates EVERY DAY in ALL
KINDS OF DECISIONS) by getting elected (paid) and voting on many micro
issues (spending money)
Sadly most intellectuals are trapped in "Fairytale Landia" and philosophize
about what changes to apply to "Fairytale Democracy", but should instead
try to rethink "REAL DEMOCRACY" to get rid of the issues you mention above.
> You say, "The FAKE BULLSHIT (you describe) has to disolve.", but you don't
> explain its failings. I've seen many such assertions, but never one that
> provided an explanation of what is wrong with the system or why it failed.
> Without knowing and understanding why it failed, it is impossible to
> improve upon it.
*Just wake up :-)*
=> FAKE BULLSHIT means: *"Fairytale Democracy" *(see above)
A first step would be to realize, that our *economy *and more specific
earning/spending money is the real "voting" that makes the world spin and
people execute activities every day. It's only then, when intellectuals can
actually philosophize on how to improve democracy in order to prevent the
shortcomings you labeled:
- *"work for cheap under horrible conditions"*
- *it is not available to those who need their resources to feed their
> Existing pseudo-democratic political systems fail because they treat the
> people like children whose Mommy gives them a choice between Corn Flakes or
> Wheaties for breakfast. Political parties, acting like Mommies, tell the
> people what political choices they can make.
=> See Definition of *"Fairytale Democracy"* above. You confirm and admit
there is a farce.
Actually it's even worse - because parties dont tell people what political
choices they have - people make a cross every couple of years and
politicians (which requires a lot of money to be "visible" to people in
order to receive any votes at all) will basically do whatever they think
makes sense to them.
> Over the past one hundred years, the explosion of mass communications and
> the application of behavioral science have given party politics a
> stranglehold on the people. They have robbed the people of their right to
> govern themselves. Instead, as many have known for years and researchers
> at Princeton and Northwestern are starting to learn, even America has
> turned into an oligarchy.
*TRUE and NOT TRUE!*
Thats a very individual thing.
=> The internet allows everyone who wants to become more free to reach out
for diverse informations and discuss with people how to improve this world.
=> Those who are lazy and don't make use of the options given to them help
to turn everything into an oligarchy.
=> "Robbing" needs robbers on one side, but also people who don't give a
shit about them and others being robbed and indirectly help the robbers.
I do not agree, that the* "explosion of mass communications and the
application of behavioral science have given party politics a stranglehold
on the people" *follows from the technology, but instead, the fact we have
this technologies also enables the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you say - it's a
matter of choice whether people use it for one or the other.
Maybe politicians or certain interest groups want to use it for "robbery",
but every person has a choice to easily counter that, by engaging and not
> The oligarchs who control the psuedo-democracies maintain their power by
> the most basic rule of success: Divide and Conquer. In the United States,
> they use two political parties to divide the people and control the
> government. Other countries claim to be 'more democratic' because they
> introduce more parties. They're not.
Oligarchies convince intellectual that we live in *"Fairytale Democracy"*
and not *"Real Democracy"*
=> If those who are interested and have the intellectual capacity would
stop being useless by philosophizing about a hypothetical world with all
kinds of constraints
=> Start thinking about how to improve the rules in *"Real Democracy"* to
...that would make a major difference.
> Political parties are divisive by definition. They do not seek to serve
> the common interest; they seek to assert the interests of a select few.
> They do not improve democracy, they empower a relatively radical portion of
> the electorate at the expense of the common interest.
sure, but the best they do is to convince people, that the public debate
should be about them and that the rules in "Fairytale Democracy" actually
> Any system that lets small groups of people decide who can be a candidate
> for public office and raise immense amounts of money to peddle their
> candidate to the public is flawed. The only product the parties have have
> to sell is the laws their candidates enact and that creates a conflict of
> interest that has tragic consequences for the people.
The only product they have to cell is convince people that "Fairytale
Democracy" matters when it comes to shaping reality.
That way, all intellectual efforts are channeled into discussing and
improving rules that do not matter, while "Real Democracy" is actually
shaping the world - and people are merely passive observers that do 40h+ a
week contribute to that "reality shaping process" called economy.
In order to make sure, that "Fairytale Democracy" doesnt interfer, because
actually gigantic efforts of people living in "Fairytale Democracy"
sometimes might lead to influence reality remotely, "Real Democracy"
(spending of money) can make sure, it doesnt, because in the end "Real
Democracy" (see above) is what truly shapes reality.
*=> BECAUSE: It decides what billions of people DO every day around the
> It need not be so. There is no shortage of people among us with the wit
> and wisdom to resolve adversarial issues in the public interest. What we
> lack is a means of identifying them and raising them to leadership
*Haha :-)*Of course - in fairytale landia, it's pretty hard to find any
issues at all and identify them, because the real issues exist in reality
and "REAL DEMOCRACY", which is the monetary system, central banking, the
economy and how billions of people spend their time every day working to
As long as people do not wake up to this fact, it will stay difficult
forever to identify any kind of important issues, because how can you find
them if you look at the wrong spots.
It is unfortunate that the many bright and thoughtful people who post on
> this site do not think it worthwhile to help the Frome Town Council find a
> way for every member of the community to help decide which of their peers
> are the most attuned to the needs of the community and have the qualities
> required to advocate the common good.
If the "Frown Town Council" wants to contribute, then it should use it's
position to explain to people how irrelevant they are and that people
should start focusing their attention and brain processing power on issues
that matter - ... if the "Frown Town Council" fails to do so, in essence,
it will contribute to the joint effort of all politics to keep people
focused on "FAIRYDALE DEMOCRACY" and by that it will help those forces that
are happy about this fact - mainly the forces you mention throughout your
> Fred Gohlke
> Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
*Everything I have written above is my personal experience/opinion on
things, no matter what kinds of words i did use(e.g. "always", "never",
"impossible", "waste of time", ....).*
*Such extreme words only do indicate, that my experience/opinion on
something is very strong and i currently cannot imagine that there are
other possibilities until new arguments/insights/whatever open my eyes that
there are alternative perspectives too :-)Please do not feel discouraged to
challenge my opinion if you have a different one.*
*Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen*
D - 60599 Frankfurt am Main
*[mail] *citizen at serapath.de <alexander.praetorius at serapath.de>
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