[EM] Alexander Praetorius, regarding Frome, U.K.

Alexander Praetorius citizen at serapath.de
Sun Jul 12 06:40:45 PDT 2015

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Fred Gohlke <fredgohlke at verizon.net> wrote:

> Good Morning, Alex
> I apologize for the delay in posting this.  It couldn't be helped.
> As I understand it, you believe political action can only occur in a
> business environment.

Yes, because the general population or people have expertise in their
business domain, and this is were they can engage if given the opportunity.
If not, then we have to stay with the status quo were only the political
elite will lead the discourse and they fail more and more in the ever
increasing complexity of our every day life.

> I question that.  Economic systems are the slaves of political systems.

Yes, that has been so traditionally and still is, but it's also that the
political system is constrained by the economic realities, so it's a bit
one sided to put it like that.

> Economic power can only exist to the extent it is enabled by the political
> system.

And political power can only be exercises by the constrains the economic
reality puts forth. I like to empower people in their every day work.

> As we've seen in the United States, when the political system guts and
> repeals laws intended to protect the public from economic predators (the
> Glass-Steagall Act) and passes laws that let corporate giants steal from
> the people (Intellectual Property Laws for entities with no intellect), it
> empowers the economic leaders and protects them from accountability.

What I am talking about is empowering "small people" to start making
decisions on their own and network with partners and say good bye to their
traditional employers.
The millions of people that go to work like zombies for 40h+ every week is
what gives all that power to those big corporations you mention.
So as soon as all those millions of employees decide to be on their own in
their field/domain of business (and that's what they have knowledge and/or
expertise in) and collaborate with others, they stop empowering those big
corporations (which are basically very well connected with politics, to a
degree that it becomes indistinguishable)

> You mention traditional companies (economic leaders) and point out "...
> how they spend money to corrupt, how they abuse people in third world
> countries to work for cheap under horrible conditions, how they pollute the
> environment, and the like ..." Those travesties flow directly from the
> political system that empowers them.

No, it's not the political system that empowers them - that's a bullshit
What empowers them are millions of employees, who go to work and execute
what is told to them and they do that for 40h+ every week. If they instead
would use online tools to manage/coordinate business processes that span
across different self employed individuals, that would take away the power
from the corporations.

> You have made several references to the need for people to confer with
> their peers about the circumstances of their lives.  That can only occur
> when there is a purpose for their conference and a certainty that their
> deliberations will be fruitful.  Otherwise, it is mere babble, as most
> people recognize.

And that's why i strongly believe it has to start in business. The
profession people pursue for 40h+ every week is where they have insights
and knowledge. It's where they have an oppinion and if they collaborate
with others based on their skills and in their "domain of business", they
have a common goal, which is to successfully create products and services
that others pay for and satisfy needs. So it will not be "babble", but will
be very focused and the more experience people gain, the more
"farsightedness" they will display in those dicisions.
So the general public will start their "political carreer" starting with
their personal skills and professions and from there it will grow to reach
virtually every field of politics, by spanning larger and large supply
chains and the whole culture around it... but it has to start somewhere :-)

> The Town Council of Frome, U.K. can provide a purpose for such discourse
> and a guarantee that the discussions lead to political action.

People work. That's what causes action. They can work like sheep or they
can wake up and decide what kind of work they engage and under which
circumstances and with which partners. This is where political choice
starts and it grows from there.

> It can arrange for the people of Frome to meet in small groups, initially
> of neighbors, to select one of their number to represent the group.

I do not believe people have time for that. It needs to be possible to
combine business and politics. Everything that keeps them from exercising
their professional skills will not work.
It would only serve to proof, that "it doesnt work" and discourage them
from trying and instead again delegating "political power" to

> Those selected can then be grouped in similar groups, progressively, until
> the people have chosen the individuals best suited to represent their
> interests in their government.

I can represent myself, i dont need and dont want any delegates. I do
business with partners and together we try to figure out how to move from
Traditional politics is incapable of bringing the chance necessary.
Traditional politics has to vanish in order to bring forth real democracy,

> In addition to the obvious benefit of letting all the people of Frome
> participate

This is an illusion. If you will measure voting or participation and
compare that to the amount of people that could participate, you will see
it will never work. It can never work.

> in the political process to the full extent of each individual's desire
> and ability, this process has several benefits, two of which are:
> * it eliminates political campaigning, the costs of which are at the core
> of political corruption.  Politicians sell the laws that burden the people
> in order to get the money they need to campaign for public office.

Campaigning starts to stop work, as soon as people realize the answer is
not in people out there explaining the world, but the answer lies in
themselves and their community and they have to start with the immediate
people surrounding them. They have to decide what they want to do and how
they want to do it and with whom and then establish policies around that
and once it works - they talk to other "business networks" and figure out
what kind of culture those have and how to have a dialog with them about
how to improve business and wealth.
I dont see what politicians can do here. They should rather quit politics
and learn some skills that bring real value.

> * Individuals elected to public office are not part of a bloc, they cannot
> be forced to support laws just because their party demands it. Instead,
> they must persuade their legislative body of the value of acts they favor
> by the force of their arguments, not by the pressure of their party.

empty words. I dont believe. If there is a small group of people or an
individual that has the power to decide about the fate of a large group of
people, this will atomatically motivate forces to corrupt those in order to
decide in favour of some particular interest groups. They are systemically
the "weak spot" in our political system. I don't feel like making myself
vulnerable by delegating power to a few people who then will sell me and
others - and in the long run they always will.

> There *is* something the Town Council of Frome can do to build a bottom-up
> political process for their community.  If Frome adopts such an electoral
> process, other communities will follow and the concept will spread.

I wish you the best with that. Maybe it'll succeed. I cannot imagine, but
probably there will be improvements if you see them - maybe it will make it
slightly better than the status quo.

> Fred Gohlke
> ----
> Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info


*Everything I have written above is my personal experience/opinion on
things, no matter what kinds of words i did use(e.g. "always", "never",
"impossible", "waste of time", ....).*

*Such extreme words only do indicate, that my experience/opinion on
something is very strong and i currently cannot imagine that there are
other possibilities until new arguments/insights/whatever open my eyes that
there are alternative perspectives too :-)Please do not feel discouraged to
challenge my opinion if you have a different one.*

*Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen*
Alexander Praetorius
Bornemannstrasse 17
D - 60599 Frankfurt am Main
*[skype] *alexander.praetorius
*[mail] *citizen at serapath.de <alexander.praetorius at serapath.de>
*[web] *http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/attachments/20150712/492292d4/attachment-0001.htm>

More information about the Election-Methods mailing list