[EM] Paul: Counts

Paul Kislanko jpkislanko at bellsouth.net
Sat Apr 28 20:43:03 PDT 2012

Mike, I asked what ballots are you going to hand-count. I vote by touching a
touch-screen, and  the machine gives me a receipt. You say I COULD give you
a paper ballot to hand-count, but if I just voted by pressing a portion of a
touch-sensitive-display-screen, what are you going to hand-count? My touch
is not verifiable by a hand-count of what the machine recorded. It can only
be verified by asking me if what your machine's record matches what the
machine printed out for me. And you can't "hand count" that without asking
me if what you're counting matched my ballot. And you can't do THAT without
violating the principles of all voting systems.


From: election-methods-bounces at lists.electorama.com
[mailto:election-methods-bounces at lists.electorama.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 9:10 PM
To: election-methods at electorama.com
Subject: [EM] Paul: Counts




You said:


That wasn't Dave who said that, it was me.




That's why I said, "My apologies to Paul Kislanko, whom I called by the
wrong name."

You asked:


My point was that what is it you're going to count by hand? The tape printed
out by the machine I voted on? 




It wouldn't be printed on a tape, would it. The card that it's printed out
on? Sure, if you've

had a chance to look at it first, to verify that it says what you intended
it to, before you deposit

it in the ballot-box slot.


But who says it has to be marked by a machine. A handcount actually doesn't

a machine-printed ballot!  I would not deceive you about that.


The voter could mark hir ballot, _hirself_, without a machine!


Pencils used to be used, for instance. Pens would be better, for an
un-erasable mark.

Punched cards have been used too. Read by a machine, but  (hopefully) saved
for examination.

Of course even if punched cards are used, that doesn't mean that they must
be read by machine at

all. Punched holes are especially un-modifiable.


Someone pointed out that an Approval ballot could be illegally modified by
adding more marks.


One solution would be for the voter to mark "Approved" or "Unapproved".


In any case, video cameras must record every moment that the ballots are
handled. That would prevent

modifications. The locked ballot-box, in a locked room, should likewise be
video-camera protected.


I'm skeptical about secure machine-counts, but it would be ok if it could be
guaranteed. Until then, 

counting should only be by hand. That rules out Condorcet and Kemeny.
Approval is easily handcountable.


Mike Ossipoff


If I didn't hand-fill-out a ballot you've no way to know whether the ballots
you're counting by hand match what I told the machine was my vote. 

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