<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mike, I asked what ballots are you going to hand-count. I vote by touching a touch-screen, and the machine gives me a receipt. You say I COULD give you a paper ballot to hand-count, but if I just voted by pressing a portion of a touch-sensitive-display-screen, what are you going to hand-count? My touch is not verifiable by a hand-count of what the machine recorded. It can only be verified by asking me if what your machine’s record matches what the machine printed out for me. And you can’t “hand count” that without asking me if what you’re counting matched my ballot. And you can’t do THAT without violating the principles of all voting systems.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> election-methods-bounces@lists.electorama.com [mailto:election-methods-bounces@lists.electorama.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Ossipoff<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 28, 2012 9:10 PM<br><b>To:</b> election-methods@electorama.com<br><b>Subject:</b> [EM] Paul: Counts<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Paul:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You said:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>That wasn't Dave who said that, it was me.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[endquote]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>That's why I said, "My apologies to Paul Kislanko, whom I called by the wrong name."<br><br>You asked:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>My point was that what is it you're going to count by hand? The tape printed<br>out by the machine I voted on? <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[endquote]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It wouldn't be printed on a tape, would it. The card that it's printed out on? Sure, if you've<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>had a chance to look at it first, to verify that it says what you intended it to, before you deposit<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>it in the ballot-box slot.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>But who says it has to be marked by a machine. A handcount actually doesn't require<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>a machine-printed ballot! I would not deceive you about that.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The voter could mark hir ballot, _hirself_, without a machine!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Pencils used to be used, for instance. Pens would be better, for an un-erasable mark.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Punched cards have been used too. Read by a machine, but (hopefully) saved for examination.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Of course even if punched cards are used, that doesn't mean that they must be read by machine at<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>all. Punched holes are especially un-modifiable.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Someone pointed out that an Approval ballot could be illegally modified by adding more marks.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>One solution would be for the voter to mark "Approved" or "Unapproved".<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In any case, video cameras must record every moment that the ballots are handled. That would prevent<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>modifications. The locked ballot-box, in a locked room, should likewise be video-camera protected.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I'm skeptical about secure machine-counts, but it would be ok if it could be guaranteed. Until then, <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>counting should only be by hand. That rules out Condorcet and Kemeny. Approval is easily handcountable.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Mike Ossipoff<br><br> <br><br>If I didn't hand-fill-out a ballot you've no way to know whether the ballots<br>you're counting by hand match what I told the machine was my vote. <br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>