[EM] Kislanko and Circular Ties:

[Donald Davison]

[second try]

Dear Kislanko, you wrote: "I do not believe the statement "a circular tie
proves that the lower choices are flawed." Quite the contrary, circular
ties are inevitable."

Donald here:  Circular ties may be inevitable, but they still prove that
the lower choices are flawed.  Besides, your statement "circular ties are
inevitable." is not contrary to my statement "a circular tie proves that
the lower choices are flawed."

Kislanko: "No, nothing is wrong. Some set of voters said A>B and another
set of voters said C>A and a distinctly different set said B>C. It is only
when a method counts the ballots that we get a "paradox" that says as many
voted A>B>C as voted C>A>B."

Donald:  If most of the `A' voters vote A>B then it follows that most of
the `B' voters would vote B>A, but if instead, most of the `B' voters vote
B>C, then that is a flaw produced most likely by uninformed voters, because
informed voters would favor candidates whose supporters favor their
candidates.

Kislanko: "No, a circular tie just says that the "lower" choices of some
voters are the "higher" choices of other voters."

Donald:  The lower choices of some voters are always the higher choices of
other voters in any election method.  You are merely stating the obvious,
you are not helping us to understand you.

Kislanko: "Yes, that is obvious. No paradox can occur in a two-way race, so the
objective of any method is to reduce the number of candidates to 2."

Donald:  No, it is not obvious.  I made a general rule for all Condorcet
circular tie situations,  which would include elections of more than three
candidates.

Kislanko: "I'm not sure I understand all of the terms in the preceding two
paragraphs..."

Donald:  Well, then the thing for you to do is to list all the terms you're
not sure you understand and I will attempt to make them more
understandable.

Kislanko: "...but as a voter my opinion is that any method that doesn't
choose a candidate who gets 50%+1 of the first place rankings will result
in a rebellion by a majority..."

Donald:  This can only happen in Approval and Borda elections.  You will
need to warn their supporters of the coming rebellion.

Kislanko: "...and any that discards valid ballots because they lead to a
cycle would be declared unconstitutional in the US at first use."

Donald:  No one said anything about discarding ballots, or are you now
changing the subject?  When I suggested that one candidate be eliminated,
most on this list will be willing to assume that the votes will be
transferred to the next choices.

Kislanko: "The existance of cycles in Condorcet-based methods is a natural
consequence of combinatorial mathematics."

Donald:  Regardless of the type of mathematics you claim to exist in your
favorite method, garbage in is still garbage out.

Kislanko: "There is nothing "wrong" with the voters who participated in the
election."

Donald:  They mean well, but most are uninformed - anything can happen.


Donald,