<div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 05:50 Toby Pereira <<a href="mailto:tdp201b@yahoo.co.uk">tdp201b@yahoo.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"></div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Nice try, but I'm not the one making such sweeping claims about the method so do not need to define the conditions under which any claims about it hold.</div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I defined bias, & told how BF is completely unbiased twice at EM. Once when I introduced it in (I believe) 2006, & again in September’23.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">No, you don’t have to define what conditions you’re talking about. But when someone can’t say what it is that they mean, it’s probably because they don’t know.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">In any case, your "bias free" method certainly is not entirely unbiased without conditions as you claim. For one thing, by the measure that most people would reasonably see as the best measure of proportionality (the <span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Sainte-Laguë measure), "bias free" favours small parties, so that in itself is a form of bias. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">As I’ve surely mentioned, Toby hasn’t a clue what bias is. He’s continuing to confuse it with non-systematic departure from proportionality.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">But even by that measure, it can quite clearly be shown that any deterministic method (that doesn't award fractional seats, and perhaps other obvious background caveats), can end up biased, depending on how votes are distributed in terms of small/large parties. </div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">There, Toby is confusing the proportionality of a particular allocation with the bias of an allocation-rule.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">It's pretty obvious in fact. And back in 2012, you seemed to acknowledge that assumptions were required, but it appears you've forgotten that now. <a rel="nofollow" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com//2012-July/095996.html</a></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I’m not entirely sure what Toby is referring to. Warren Smith was making claims about what he felt was needed for defining, measuring & minimizing bias. I’ve never heard of anyone agreeing with him on that.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">But, at first, I was willing to discuss how his requirements could be met.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">But at least 1 or 2 academic journal papers reported about BF, & one named it the Ossipoff-Agnew method.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Agreement was expressed regarding its unbias.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><a rel="nofollow" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"></a></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">It is not clear in any case that a method that balances small parties and large parties in this manner is better than one that gives a more mathematically proportional result. E.g. if you have two small parties and two large parties, and the two large parties end up slightly overrepresented and the two small parties underrepresented, this is not necessarily any worse than having one of each over/underrepresented. </div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Again, completely clueless about what bias is, & the difference between bias & non-systematic disproportionately.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Bias is worse, precisely because it consistently, systematically disfavors certain groups(large or small parties or states).</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">These things have all been explained to Toby several times, but he’s still reopening exactly the same blather as always.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Assertive, self-assured, & clueless.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">In other words, the perfect poster-child for the Dunning-Kruger effect.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">You just have four separate parties, two of which end up overrepresented and two under. There's no coalition between parties of similar size so this balancing is not required.</div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">…demonstrating tha whenever it seems that Toby has surely maxed-out, he outdoes himself again.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Perhaps if you continue with your incorrect claims, I will have to block you!</div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Yes, if that will shut you up.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Toby</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div>
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On Tuesday 16 July 2024 at 15:26:37 BST, Michael Ossipoff <<a style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">email9648742@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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<div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><div id="m_2195529209729129312ydpe5cdeeb3yiv9306697726" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Oops!!! Toby forgot to say what conditions he was referring to. </div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Bias-Free is entirely unbiased, without conditions.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">I propose Saint-Lague (SL), because of its natural intuitive obviousness, & it’s near-unbias.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Bias-Free (BF) is a refinement that I’d offer as a possibility for later.</div><div id="m_2195529209729129312ydpe5cdeeb3yiv9306697726yqt78863" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 06:04 Toby Pereira <<a shape="rect" rel="nofollow" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">tdp201b@yahoo.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"></div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">It is worth noting that the method Ossipoff declares to be "bias free" is only so under a very specific set of assumptions.</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Toby</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div>
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On Monday 15 July 2024 at 04:38:35 BST, Michael Ossipoff <<a shape="rect" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">email9648742@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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<div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><div id="m_2195529209729129312ydpe5cdeeb3yiv9306697726m_-3350527419449377950ydpeed14f2fyiv6036480793" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">There was interest in a poll about PR. But I feel that first the PR methods should be tried, used, in a poll with the actual candidates & parties.<div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">As I mentioned before, there’s no substitute for the experience of actually using the electoral methods in polls. You don’t know the methods until you use them.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">So I propose a 3-part poll. …presidential & PR:<br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">1. A Condorcet presidential-poll with 7 candidates + the approval-line. As others have mentioned, of course it could be counted by any rank-count that allows equal-ranking. But of course RP(wv) won here as the most collectively popular, & so its winner should be reported.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">The approval-line of course would allow counting by methods that use explicit-approval.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">…in addition to by the zero-cost implementation method.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">2. A 3-seat STV poll among the same set of candidates as in the presidential-poll.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">…as if we were electing a 3-person presidential triumvirate, or seats in some 3-member district in which those candidates are running.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Of course the STV rankings could be counted by any STV version, & integer STV is (in some ways) an easier count. But fractional STV is the unarbitrary STV that doesn’t require a rule or randomizing-process for the order in which ballots transfer.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Of course, because the STV doesn’t allow equal-rankin, then its ballots also could & would also be counted for an RCV count.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Of course if someone wanted to vote different rankings for STV & RCV, then they could write both & indicate which is which.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">3. A 500-seat at-large party-PR allocation election. Of course voters vote for their favorite party, & seats are allocate to the parties in proportion to their votes.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Reported will be: allocations by:</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Sainte-Lague, Bias-Free (Ossipoff-Agnew), d’Hondt, Largest-Remainder, & Huntington-Hill (“Equal-Proportions”).</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">SL & BF probably won’t differ from eachother.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">————-</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">For the party-PR SL & BF allocation of 500 seats, the requirement for a party being seated 🪑 is about 1/7 of one percent of the vote.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">For the 3-seat STV allocation, the requirement is being over 1/4 of the vote.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">————-</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">SL, in actual implementations, requires .7 quotas for a party’s 1st seat. That’s to thwart, prevent & discourage splitting-strategy, which could otherwise sometimes be advantageous if the conditions were detected.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Because BF & SL give often the same allocation, then BF should have that same requirement.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">That’s taken into account for the abovestated requirement for a party to be seated.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">—————- </div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Candidates for presidential & STV elections:</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">(These listings are alphabetical.)</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Joe Biden</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">RFK Jr.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Chase Oliver</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Jill Stein</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Donald Trump</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Cornell West</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Marianne Williamson </div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">approval-line———————</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">———————</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Parties for party-PR election:</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">American Independent </div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">American Solidarity </div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Constitution </div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Democrat</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Green</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Libertarian </div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Peace & Freedom</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Working Family </div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">—————</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Of course if this poll is going to happen, then additional nominations should be allowed. But we probably don’t need a week or two for that.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Surely any additional nominations would be made within 2 days. So let’s say that the period for optional additional nominations ends exactly 48 hours after this message posts.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">…& that the voting period begins at that same moment.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">We don’t need a month for the voting-period, do we? Shall we say 1 week if there’s no electioneering, & 2 weeks if there’s electioneering?</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Anyone can change any of their ballots during the voting period.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">————</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Of course if this poll happens, & if no one else volunteers to take the responsibility of recording the ballots, then I’ll do so. …then of course will unblock the people I’ve blocked, for that purpose.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">————-</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">It goes without saying that anything about the details of this poll could be objected-to, & then, if others support the objection, then discussion would be called-for. </div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">It’s always best to avoid the delay caused by a procedural vote, & so hopefully there will be a consensus agreement. …or at least it will be informally-obvious which position is supported or acceptable to the most people, based on opinions expressed.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">An RP(wv) vote would be a reluctant last-resort. Anyone could call for it if consensus were adamantly refused & no position seemed to clearly have more support or acceptance.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Hopefully none of that will be necessary, but it’s good to have it mentioned for contingency.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">————-</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">As the proposer of the poll, I should vote first, immediately at the beginning of the voting-period. I don’t know if anyone will participate, but, because there was participation in the previous poll, & because people have suggested a PR poll, & because there’s no substitute for using the electoral methods…then I’ll proceed on the assumption that there’s interest & that there might be participation.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">If the poll doesn’t happen, it won’t be because I didn’t try to start it.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br clear="none"></div>
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