<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">However I wouldn’t call an RCV or STV ballot
“spoiled” if it has equal-ranking. I’d instead just rank any
equal-ranked candidates, at some particular rank-position, *in
alphabetical-order by last-name*</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I figure the voter won’t mind, because he
doesn’t have any preference among them.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Is that okay?</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
No, that breaks some axiom that I think is called Anonymity. The
method isn't allowed to discriminate among candidates based on
their on their names.<br>
<br>
The simplest would be to construct a random tie-breaking order and
just transfer the whole vote to whichever of the equal-ranked
candidates is highest in the order.<br>
<br>
For Hare I consider ideal would be to first divide the vote into
tied fractions summing to 1 to order the remaining candidates and
then use that order to transfer the whole vote. <br>
<br>
I assume in the party-PR poll we are just supposed to give our
favourite. Is that correct?<br>
<br>
Chris B.<br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 18/07/2024 3:01 pm, Michael Ossipoff
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAOKDY5Cpfig14+qR8LUzwZ5kSC3WQAnpAHxVnpW-ke4Cv-qd6A@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I forgot to mention: RCV & STV don’t allow
equa-ranking (though Condorcet does).</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">However I wouldn’t call an RCV or STV ballot
“spoiled” if it has equal-ranking. I’d instead just rank any
equal-ranked candidates, at some particular rank-position, *in
alphabetical-order by last-name*</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I figure the voter won’t mind, because he doesn’t
have any preference among them.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Is that okay?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Of course, for the RP(wv) count your equal-ranked
candidates will be counted as equal-ranked, because
equal-ranking is permissible in Condorcet.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Additional answers inline below:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 16:55 Richard, the
VoteFair guy <<a href="mailto:electionmethods@votefair.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">electionmethods@votefair.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">Michael,
here is my ballot.<br>
<br>
You can translate this into your desired ballot format.<br>
<br>
If you claim you need a full ranking, then I choose not to
vote in this <br>
poll. That's because I don't have time to research
unfamiliar <br>
candidates and unfamiliar parties.<br>
<br>
In the candidate poll my ballot is that I rank Biden as the
only <br>
"approved" candidate</blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Okay.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto"> -- even though I wish he would drop out and <br>
transfer his delegate votes to nearly anyone.<br>
<br>
I rank Trump at the bottom of the candidate list, below all
the other <br>
candidates</blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Okay.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto">because he wants to destroy democracy, destroy
the U.S. <br>
economy as a favor to Putin, and destroy the U.S. military
as another <br>
favor to Putin.</blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Yes, The Republican in general, & Trump in
particular, always finishes last, in every Condorcet or STAR
poll that includes the Republocratic candidates & the
Progressive candidates.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">(In this election-year, Biden is winning the
CIVS poll “2024 presidential election”. Likewise in a few
STAR polls. …because this year, some people feel a desperate
need to portray Biden winnable, to try to make people vote
for him in November. But ordinarily the top-finisher &
CW is Jill or Bernie…well alright, sometimes a Libertarian.
Never, ever, is the Republican anywhere but bottom.)</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">…& yet, people actually believe that Jill
Stein couldn’t beat him. Usually she or Bernie is CW,
too-finisher in those polls.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">So, the usual top-finisher can’t beat the
always bottom-finisher?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Wow! What are people smoking?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Hello? The always-bottom-finisher isn’t a
threat if we all vote for the (same) candidate whom we
actually all like.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Forget “The-Lesser-Evil” &
“The-Two-Choices”.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">In Burlington Alaska, it was clearly shown
that the median-voters prefer the more progressive
candidates. …in confirmation of those poll-results.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Lesser-evils voters worry too much!!!</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto"><br>
<br>
In between I rank all the other candidates at the same
preference level, <br>
and not worth researching to rank them because they lack
high-level <br>
executive experience and expertise.</blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Okay. As I mentioned, in RCV & STV, it
will be necessary to for the count to rank those
equal-ranked candidates in alphabetical-order. Is that okay?</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto"><br>
<br>
In the party poll, I rank the Democratic party as the only
"approved" <br>
party because it's the only party offering a viable
candidate.</blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Okay. The Democrat Party is your party vote,
for the Party-PR count.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Though it would be improper for me to comment
on your ballot, there’s no rule that says I can’t comment on
political-statements:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">See above about the results of Condorcet &
STAR polls, & what Burlington & Alaska showed about
the preference of median-voters.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Most people say (in answer to other polls)
that they’re tired of “The-Two-Choices”, & say they want
different parties.<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">So yes the parties other than the
Republocratic Party aren’t “viable”, because only the people
want them. :-)</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Don’t let the TV tell you what or who is or
isn’t “viable”.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Vote honestly in November, for what we all
want. …& certainly not for someone none of us want, for
whom we’d have to hold our nose.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">If you’re holding your nose, reconsider your
vote.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto"><br>
<br>
Under current circumstances I rank the Republican party at
the bottom of <br>
the list, below all other parties. That's because they are
not offering <br>
a candidate who wants to preserve fair elections, protect
the U.S. <br>
against its enemies, and improve the economy. As another
flaw, the new <br>
Republican party platform claims the presidential election
will not be <br>
fair if the Republican candidate doesn't win the
presidential election.</blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Agreed. Few people want the Republicans.
They’d never win an election with honest voting & honest
count.</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto"><br>
<br>
In case you didn't notice the above words "only approved
party," I'll <br>
clarify that all the parties other than the Democratic party
are <br>
"unapproved" because they do not offer viable candidates.</blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Look what the Democrats offer :-)</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">That’s viable? </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">..even though most people say they don’t want
them?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Are the Democrats more viable than the
candidates who usually win the Condorcet & STAR polls
that include the Republocrats & the Progressives?</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto"><br>
<br>
Apparently, in this poll, you want me to point to one party
as the one I <br>
like. It's "none of the above." That's because I dislike
all current <br>
U.S. political parties. Yes, I'm willing to "throw away"
this vote to <br>
express this preference</blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Okay. Done. Your ballot doesn’t cast a vote in
the Party-PR balloting.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">You dislike all current parties? Have you read
all of their platforms? If not, how do you know you dislike
them? What do you dislike about the *policies* offered by
some of the “3rd-parties” that you’ve heard of?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I’m not trying to get you to change your vote.
That would be improper. Of course your ballot will be
counted exactly as you said.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I’m merely participating in the
political-discussion.</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto"><br>
<br>
Clarification: I register with either the Republican or
Democratic <br>
party so I can vote in the primary elections of one or the
other of the <br>
two parties that supply viable nominees. </blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">The two parties that none of us want are the
only viable ones? </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto">I switch between those two <br>
parties periodically. I dislike them both. </blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Yes! We all do!</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Switch between them? </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Switch out of them!</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto"> I also dislike all third <br>
parties.</blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">All of them? Regarding the main ones you’ve
heard of, which of their platform-policies do you dislike?</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto"><br>
<br>
My dislike of existing political parties is why I promote <br>
election-method reform! </blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Yes, that’s why we’re all here! Dislike of The
Two Choices. …which obviously are NOT the two choices.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">But which platform-policy of the main other
parties that you’ve heard of do you dislike?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto">If U.S. election reforms are well-designed, <br>
then in the future at least one U.S. party will be motivated
to offer <br>
wise problem-solving leaders instead of whatever you want to
call their <br>
current nominees.</blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Regarding the platform-policies & leaders
of the parties you’ve heard of, other than the Democrats
& Republicans—what about them isn’t wise,
problem-solving?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Michael Ossipoff </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"
dir="auto"><br>
<br>
Richard Fobes<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 7/16/2024 9:24 PM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:<br>
> One reason for my voting 1st is to demonstrate what I
mean by the <br>
> voting-instructions:<br>
<br>
...<br>
----<br>
Election-Methods mailing list - see <a
href="https://electorama.com/em" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://electorama.com/em</a>
for list info<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">----
Election-Methods mailing list - see <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://electorama.com/em">https://electorama.com/em</a> for list info
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>