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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Nice try, but I'm not the one making such sweeping claims about the method so do not need to define the conditions under which any claims about it hold.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">In any case, your "bias free" method certainly is not entirely unbiased without conditions as you claim. For one thing, by the measure that most people would reasonably see as the best measure of proportionality (the <span>Sainte-Laguë measure), "bias free" favours small parties, so that in itself is a form of bias. Essentially if a large party and a small party have an exactly mathematically equal claim to a seat "bias free" will award it to the small party. Obviously when I brought this up before, you introduced the red herring of Huntington-Hill, but I put that side issue to bed once and for all in this EM post - </span><a href="http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2024-April/005685.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" class="">http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2024-April/005685.html</a></div><div><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I understand that you are only talking about bias in terms of the total number of seats working out in favour of small parties or large parties, as if that is the only form of bias in existence. But even by that measure, it can quite clearly be shown that any deterministic method (that doesn't award fractional seats, and perhaps other obvious background caveats), can end up biased, depending on how votes are distributed in terms of small/large parties. It's pretty obvious in fact. And back in 2012, you seemed to acknowledge that assumptions were required, but it appears you've forgotten that now. <a href="http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com//2012-July/095996.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" class="">http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com//2012-July/095996.html</a></div><div><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">It is not clear in any case that a method that balances small parties and large parties in this manner is better than one that gives a more mathematically proportional result. E.g. if you have two small parties and two large parties, and the two large parties end up slightly overrepresented and the two small parties underrepresented, this is not necessarily any worse than having one of each over/underrepresented. You just have four separate parties, two of which end up overrepresented and two under. There's no coalition between parties of similar size so this balancing is not required.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Perhaps if you continue with your incorrect claims, I will have to block you!</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Toby</div><div><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div><br></div>
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On Tuesday 16 July 2024 at 15:26:37 BST, Michael Ossipoff <email9648742@gmail.com> wrote:
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<div><div id="ydpe5cdeeb3yiv9306697726"><div><div>Oops!!! Toby forgot to say what conditions he was referring to. </div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Bias-Free is entirely unbiased, without conditions.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>I propose Saint-Lague (SL), because of its natural intuitive obviousness, & it’s near-unbias.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Bias-Free (BF) is a refinement that I’d offer as a possibility for later.</div><div id="ydpe5cdeeb3yiv9306697726yqt78863" class="ydpe5cdeeb3yiv9306697726yqt1286023023"><div><br clear="none"><div class="ydpe5cdeeb3yiv9306697726gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="ydpe5cdeeb3yiv9306697726gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 06:04 Toby Pereira <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:tdp201b@yahoo.co.uk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">tdp201b@yahoo.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;" class="ydpe5cdeeb3yiv9306697726gmail_quote"><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div>
<div dir="ltr">It is worth noting that the method Ossipoff declares to be "bias free" is only so under a very specific set of assumptions.</div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr">Toby</div><div><br clear="none"></div>
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On Monday 15 July 2024 at 04:38:35 BST, Michael Ossipoff <<a shape="rect">email9648742@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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<div><div id="ydpe5cdeeb3yiv9306697726m_-3350527419449377950ydpeed14f2fyiv6036480793">There was interest in a poll about PR. But I feel that first the PR methods should be tried, used, in a poll with the actual candidates & parties.<div><br clear="none"></div><div>As I mentioned before, there’s no substitute for the experience of actually using the electoral methods in polls. You don’t know the methods until you use them.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>So I propose a 3-part poll. …presidential & PR:<br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>1. A Condorcet presidential-poll with 7 candidates + the approval-line. As others have mentioned, of course it could be counted by any rank-count that allows equal-ranking. But of course RP(wv) won here as the most collectively popular, & so its winner should be reported.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>The approval-line of course would allow counting by methods that use explicit-approval.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>…in addition to by the zero-cost implementation method.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>2. A 3-seat STV poll among the same set of candidates as in the presidential-poll.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>…as if we were electing a 3-person presidential triumvirate, or seats in some 3-member district in which those candidates are running.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Of course the STV rankings could be counted by any STV version, & integer STV is (in some ways) an easier count. But fractional STV is the unarbitrary STV that doesn’t require a rule or randomizing-process for the order in which ballots transfer.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Of course, because the STV doesn’t allow equal-rankin, then its ballots also could & would also be counted for an RCV count.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Of course if someone wanted to vote different rankings for STV & RCV, then they could write both & indicate which is which.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>3. A 500-seat at-large party-PR allocation election. Of course voters vote for their favorite party, & seats are allocate to the parties in proportion to their votes.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Reported will be: allocations by:</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Sainte-Lague, Bias-Free (Ossipoff-Agnew), d’Hondt, Largest-Remainder, & Huntington-Hill (“Equal-Proportions”).</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>SL & BF probably won’t differ from eachother.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>————-</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>For the party-PR SL & BF allocation of 500 seats, the requirement for a party being seated 🪑 is about 1/7 of one percent of the vote.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>For the 3-seat STV allocation, the requirement is being over 1/4 of the vote.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>————-</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>SL, in actual implementations, requires .7 quotas for a party’s 1st seat. That’s to thwart, prevent & discourage splitting-strategy, which could otherwise sometimes be advantageous if the conditions were detected.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Because BF & SL give often the same allocation, then BF should have that same requirement.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>That’s taken into account for the abovestated requirement for a party to be seated.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>—————- </div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Candidates for presidential & STV elections:</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>(These listings are alphabetical.)</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Joe Biden</div><div>RFK Jr.</div><div>Chase Oliver</div><div>Jill Stein</div><div>Donald Trump</div><div>Cornell West</div><div>Marianne Williamson </div><div>approval-line———————</div><div>———————</div><div>Parties for party-PR election:</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>American Independent </div><div>American Solidarity </div><div>Constitution </div><div>Democrat</div><div>Green</div><div>Libertarian </div><div>Peace & Freedom</div><div>Working Family </div><div>—————</div><div>Of course if this poll is going to happen, then additional nominations should be allowed. But we probably don’t need a week or two for that.</div><div>Surely any additional nominations would be made within 2 days. So let’s say that the period for optional additional nominations ends exactly 48 hours after this message posts.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>…& that the voting period begins at that same moment.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>We don’t need a month for the voting-period, do we? Shall we say 1 week if there’s no electioneering, & 2 weeks if there’s electioneering?</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Anyone can change any of their ballots during the voting period.</div><div>————</div><div>Of course if this poll happens, & if no one else volunteers to take the responsibility of recording the ballots, then I’ll do so. …then of course will unblock the people I’ve blocked, for that purpose.</div><div>————-</div><div>It goes without saying that anything about the details of this poll could be objected-to, & then, if others support the objection, then discussion would be called-for. </div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>It’s always best to avoid the delay caused by a procedural vote, & so hopefully there will be a consensus agreement. …or at least it will be informally-obvious which position is supported or acceptable to the most people, based on opinions expressed.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>An RP(wv) vote would be a reluctant last-resort. Anyone could call for it if consensus were adamantly refused & no position seemed to clearly have more support or acceptance.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Hopefully none of that will be necessary, but it’s good to have it mentioned for contingency.</div><div>————-</div><div>As the proposer of the poll, I should vote first, immediately at the beginning of the voting-period. I don’t know if anyone will participate, but, because there was participation in the previous poll, & because people have suggested a PR poll, & because there’s no substitute for using the electoral methods…then I’ll proceed on the assumption that there’s interest & that there might be participation.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>If the poll doesn’t happen, it won’t be because I didn’t try to start it.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div>
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