<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Michael,</div><div><br></div><div>I pretty much agree with your positions vis a vis Condorcet and approval.  I came around from mildly negative regarding approval in the 1990s and 2000s, to neutral in the early 2010s to very positive about it in the late 2010s and now.  You're right that the auditability of approval elections is a killer feature, and that auditing any strictly Condorcet-winner-criterion compliant system will be incredibly difficult.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I think, though, that engaging in good faith on this mailing list is going to involve taking the time to make your responses shorter and to the point.  I frequently find it difficult-to-impossible to read your poorly formatted, long, and disjointed responses.  I feel a little bad for calling you out specifically on this, because you aren't the only one I could level that criticism toward, but I'm hoping everyone who is reading this isn't too smug about THEIR emails being crisp and to-the-point.  Writing a good postcard is often a lot more work than writing a long letter, and we all could probably do better.  Can we all work on making our missives to this mailing list a little clearer?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Rob<br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 10:29 PM Michael Ossipoff <<a href="mailto:email9648742@gmail.com" target="_blank">email9648742@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">



















<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">Someone keeps repeating that the
voters shouldn’t have to vote strategically. He wants the method to do it all
for us, after we merely state our sincere-rankings.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">That’s of course a common attitude: <span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…wanting a high-tech,
computation-intensive,<span>  </span>computer-dependent
system to do it all for us, taking all the actual choosing responsibility off
of us.<span>  </span>…sheltering & isolating us
from the choice.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">I’ve already agreed that a
completely legalistic system like a good Condorcet method is probably the best
thing for the inimical electorate in our public-political elections.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">...all else being equal (as KM
said).<span>  </span><span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">I pointed out that all is NOT equal.
As desirable as it would be for our inimical public-political elections, the
automatic machine that does it all for us, to isolate & shelter us from the
choosing, comes at too high a price in our public-political elections.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">Condorcet for public political
elections has a number of problems, with count-security as the main & most
serious problem. I spoke of that before, but it just didn’t seem to get across.<span>  </span>Hello?<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">Is it that we don’t believe that count-fraud
is a genuine problem…or is it just, so strongly do we want to believe what we
believe, that we’ve convinced ourselves that we didn’t hear?<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">Claims that Condorcet is transparent
consisted of handwaving that disregarded the fact that Condorcet requires many,
many times more computation than does Approval.<span>   </span>…& requires many, many times more count
totals be tallied, stored, & transmitted to central-counting.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…a humungously, prohibitively,
bigger & more computation-intensive count.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">I’ll ask this for the 3^rd
time: <span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">How would like you to handount-audit
a Condorcet count for a many-candidate national presidential election?<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">As for the belief (if such a belief
is what this is about) that count-fraud isn’t a problem, I’ll repeat this;<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">Look up the issues of Harper’s
Magazine that came out after each of G.W. Bushes two elections (2000 &
2004).<span>  </span>Mountains of evidence for
widespread count-fraud. Check out the two Harpers articles.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">One; thing they mentioned was that a
supplier of voting-machines promised to “deliver” the election to Dubya. One of
the two Harper’s articles will give you details about that.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">It would be much better to trust the
voters to use Approval well, than to trust all of the count-personnel to not
perpetrate<span>  </span>count-fraud in the elaborate
computation-intensive Condorcet count.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">There might be a desire to have it
all done for us by a computer, but that comes at too high a price.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…& that’s not counting Approval’s
other advantages, including incomparably less expensive & easier
explanation, definition, proposal, enactment,<span> 
</span>& administration…in addition to the much better count-security that
I spoke of above.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">How bad, in your perception, is it
for voters to have to make the choice for themselves instead of just telling
their preferences & having it done for us?<span> 
</span>The Appoval-opponent I spoke of keeps saying that he wouldn’t know
whether to approve a maybe but maybe-not needed 2^nd-choice. A
dilemma: Risk someone worse than him winning, or risk helping him beat your
favorite? That critic complains that that’s unacceptable. <span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">Yes, with any method other than the
wv Condorcet methods, you don’t know what your objectively optimal vote
is.<span>  </span>Neither do any of the other voters,
so don’t worry about it !!<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">That critic seems to believe that it’s
necessary to know your objectively-optimal vote. <span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">That’s a misbelief.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">As I’ve said, probability &
therefore expectation & its maximization depend of what information you
have<span>  </span>& are using. <span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">No, you can’t know your
objectively-optimal vote.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">But you can vote to maximize your
expectation, based on the information that you have & are using.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">I’ve discussed that at length in
previous posts, & it probably isn’t necessary to again post about ways of
choosing how to vote in Approval.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">But, just summarize:<span>  </span>It’s easy.<span> 
</span>Whichever of the various ways you prefer to use, for choosing whom to
approve, it’s easy.<span>   </span>…& no, it doesn’t
require knowing your objectively-optimal vote.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">Some of us have been so spoiled by
what wv Condorcet can achieve, in doing it all for us, with us only needing to
express our sincere preference-ordering, that we’ve come to believe that that’s
necessary.<span>  </span>…having it all done for us,
to shelter & isolate us from the choice.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">I’ve many times pointed out that
Approval’s Myerson-Weber equilibrium is the voter-median.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">i.e. Approval soon homes in on where
the Condorcet-Winner is.<span>  </span><span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">Have we forgotten that?<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">It seems to me that, in every one of
EM’s polls, including the recent one, Approval chose the CW.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">Have we forgotten that?<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">The simple, reliable handtool works
just fine.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">I should add that I like wv
Condorcet (RP(wv) & MinMax(wv) ) for polls, because of course they look at
more information.<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…<span></span></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">…& I’d like them for
public-political elections too, were it not for the abovestated <span> </span>problems of the rank-methods.<span></span></span></p>





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