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Richard,<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre
style="white-space: pre-wrap; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">I think of RCIPE as being like a pyramid where the foundation layer is
solid because pairwise losing candidates deserve to be eliminated
(because they must not be allowed to win).</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
You do know that IRV already meets Condorcet Loser, right?<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre
style="white-space: pre-wrap; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">As an alternative to Borda counting I prefer the counting method in
Instant Pairwise Elimination:
<a href="https://electowiki.org/wiki/Instant_Pairwise_Elimination"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://electowiki.org/wiki/Instant_Pairwise_Elimination</a>
"... If an elimination round has no pairwise-losing candidate, then the
method eliminates the candidate with the largest pairwise opposition
count, which is determined by counting on each ballot the number of
not-yet-eliminated candidates who are ranked above that candidate, and
adding those numbers across all the ballots. ..."</pre>
</blockquote>
That is an odd definition of "largest pairwise opposition count"
which usually means the greatest number of pairwise votes against
in a pairwise comparison.<br>
<br>
49 A<br>
24 B<br>
27 C>B<br>
<br>
B>A 51 >49 A>C 49-27 C>B 27-24<br>
<br>
A has the maximum pairwise opposition (51) so if we eliminate A
then C wins, a failure of the Plurality criterion (because A has
more first-preference votes than C has any votes).<br>
(I gather your version just behaves like IRV in this case and
eliminates B,)<br>
<br>
Nonetheless that version would meet Condorcet and Mutual Majority
and Majority Loser.<br>
<br>
If the claims on the page about "mathematical criteria" are true,
then IRV does much better. Not on the list is the Plurality
criterion, which IRV meets.<br>
<br>
Of those on the list, it meets Condorcet Loser, Majority, Majority
Loser, Mutual Majority, "Cloneproof" (aka Clone Independence),
Later-no-Harm, Later-no-Help, "Burying".<br>
<br>
Of those this method only meets Condorcet loser. IRV would also
meet "Resolvable" and "Polytime" based on my guess as to what they
mean.<br>
<br>
But hey, near enough is good enough and IRV (but presumably not
this method) is "flawed".<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p
style="margin: 0.5em 0px; color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">This
method always passes the following criteria.</p>
<ul
style="list-style-image: url("/1.41/skins/Vector/resources/skins.vector.styles/images/bullet-icon.svg?d4515"); margin: 0.3em 0px 0px 1.6em; padding: 0px; color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><a
href="https://electowiki.org/wiki/Condorcet_loser_criterion"
title="Condorcet loser criterion"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(51, 102, 204); background: none; overflow-wrap: break-word;">Condorcet
loser</a>: pass</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">Resolvable: pass</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">Polytime: pass</li>
</ul>
<p
style="margin: 0.5em 0px; color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">This
method sometimes fails the following criteria.</p>
<ul
style="list-style-image: url("/1.41/skins/Vector/resources/skins.vector.styles/images/bullet-icon.svg?d4515"); margin: 0.3em 0px 0px 1.6em; padding: 0px; color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><a
href="https://electowiki.org/wiki/Condorcet_criterion"
class="mw-redirect" title="Condorcet criterion"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(51, 102, 204); background: none; overflow-wrap: break-word;">Condorcet</a>:
fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><a
href="https://electowiki.org/wiki/Majority_criterion"
title="Majority criterion"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(51, 102, 204); background: none; overflow-wrap: break-word;">Majority</a>:
fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><a
href="https://electowiki.org/wiki/Majority_loser_criterion"
title="Majority loser criterion"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(51, 102, 204); background: none; overflow-wrap: break-word;">Majority
loser</a>: fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">Mutual majority: fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;"><a
href="https://electowiki.org/wiki/Smith_criterion"
title="Smith criterion"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(51, 102, 204); background: none; overflow-wrap: break-word;">Smith</a>/<a
href="https://electowiki.org/wiki/ISDA"
class="mw-redirect" title="ISDA"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(51, 102, 204); background: none; overflow-wrap: break-word;">ISDA</a>:
fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">LIIA: fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">IIA: fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">Cloneproof: fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">Monotone: fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">Consistency: fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">Reversal symmetry: fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">Later no harm: fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">Later no help: fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">Burying: fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">Participation: fail</li>
<li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">No favorite betrayal: fail</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<br>
Chris B.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<h1
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"><br>
</h1>
<b
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Richard,
the VoteFair guy</b><span
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href="mailto:election-methods%40lists.electorama.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEM%5D%20Poll%2C%20preliminary%20ballots&In-Reply-To=%3C8b9b8ac4-72a6-46a9-ad34-680460de3f54%40votefair.org%3E"
title="[EM] Poll, preliminary ballots"
style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal;">electionmethods
at votefair.org</a><br
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<i
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: medium; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Mon
Apr 22 08:42:18 PDT 2024</i><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"></span>
<p
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"><br>
</p>
<hr
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<pre
style="white-space: pre-wrap; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">On 4/21/2024 4:33 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm wrote:
> What do you think of BTR-IRV in that respect? Or Borda-elimination?
> Neither explicitly checks for a Condorcet winner.
Regarding BTR-IRV, yes it's simpler and fully Condorcet compliant.
However, some voters will distrust the idea that the Condorcet winner is
being protected from elimination in spite of possibly repeatedly getting
the fewest transferred votes.
I suspect that BTR-IRV inherits some odd characteristics from IRV, such
as the ones that show up in a Yee diagram and what Star fans refer to as
the center-squeeze effect.
Adding another layer on top of a flawed method doesn't make it better.
I think of RCIPE as being like a pyramid where the foundation layer is
solid because pairwise losing candidates deserve to be eliminated
(because they must not be allowed to win). On top of that is the IRV
layer, which is not as strong, but it's only invoked when a counting
cycle does not include a pairwise losing candidate.
Regarding Borda-elimination, I distrust any method that's based on Borda
counting because that method is vulnerable to strategic voting and, for
fair results, requires only one mark in each row and only one mark in
each column (on a paper ballot of the kind used here in the US).
As an alternative to Borda counting I prefer the counting method in
Instant Pairwise Elimination:
<a href="https://electowiki.org/wiki/Instant_Pairwise_Elimination"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://electowiki.org/wiki/Instant_Pairwise_Elimination</a>
"... If an elimination round has no pairwise-losing candidate, then the
method eliminates the candidate with the largest pairwise opposition
count, which is determined by counting on each ballot the number of
not-yet-eliminated candidates who are ranked above that candidate, and
adding those numbers across all the ballots. ..."
Specifically, using IPE, when a voter buries a disliked candidate, the
counting is not affected by how deep that candidate is buried.
KM, thanks for your wise questions.
Richard Fobes
The VoteFair guy
On 4/21/2024 4:33 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm wrote:
><i> On 2024-04-22 01:11, Kevin Venzke wrote:
</i>>><i> Hello,
</i>>><i>
</i>>><i> From a marketability standpoint I kind of like RCIPE. If your audience
</i>>><i> understands IRV then they probably can understand the concept of a
</i>>><i> candidacy
</i>>><i> that has become futile during the count, who can be foretold to be a
</i>>><i> loser
</i>>><i> well in advance of the end.
</i>>><i>
</i>>><i> To me it is not that the pairwise losing candidate "deserves to be
</i>>><i> eliminated" but that within the logic of IRV it's intuitive that that
</i>>><i> candidate shouldn't need to play a role, affecting things, if they're
</i>>><i> doomed
</i>>><i> to lose. (Or perhaps it's just me who thinks that's intuitive.)
</i>>><i>
</i>>><i> In contrast the "beats all" winner concept would be a bridge too far,
</i>>><i> because while there might be a candidate who can win every final pairing,
</i>>><i> IRV imposes additional requirements to get to that point, so nothing is
</i>>><i> assured about that status.
</i>>><i>
</i>>><i> But if the audience doesn't know IRV then it would be harder for me to
</i>>><i> find
</i>>><i> an argument for RCIPE.
</i>><i>
</i>><i> What do you think of BTR-IRV in that respect? Or Borda-elimination?
</i>><i> Neither explicitly checks for a Condorcet winner.
</i>><i>
</i>><i> -km
</i></pre>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</blockquote>
<br>
</p>
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