<div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:-apple-system,"helvetica neue";font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:1px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(49,49,49);color:rgb(49,49,49)">>> What plenty of people are "happy" to call a thing (if that is the case) is not an argument. </span></div><br clear="all">Oh, but it is. Language is what we make it. <br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span>On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 9:15 PM Richard Lung <<a href="mailto:voting@ukscientists.com">voting@ukscientists.com</a>> wrote:</span><br></p></div></div></div></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><u></u>
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<p>Chris,</p>
<p>What plenty of people are "happy" to call a thing (if that is the
case) is not an argument. (It is perhaps a symptom of rigid
habitual adherence to the half-democratic single member system.)<br>
</p>
<p>Indeed, STV has many names, not all of them felicitous, but not
so downright wrong.</p>
<p>Dear chap, the Droop quota is not an "improvement" on the Hare
quota. One represents the minimum PR, the other the maximum PR.
Droop may not win by statistically significant margins. Hare may
require deferential voters for its quota to be filled at all.</p>
<p>Yes traditional STV has a residual elimination count but that
becomes less and less important with at-large elections, Hare
advocated. Comparing IRV with STV or Hare, on that basis, is like
classifying dogs by their tails.</p>
<p>Also, it is possible to use reformed STV without an elimination
count. That is not the nearly two centuries old Hare system, but
even then he had practically eliminated the importance of an
elimination count in his system, by at-large constituencies.<br>
</p>
<p>Thank you for your reply.</p>
<p>Regards, <br>
</p>
<p>Richard Lung.<br>
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<div>On 18/04/2024 19:35, Chris Benham
wrote:<br>
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<p><br>
Richard,<br>
<br>
Plenty of places on the net are happy to call single-winner STV
the "Hare system".<br>
</p>
<p>One example:<br>
<a href="https://assembly.cornell.edu/elections/hare-system-ranked-choice-voting" target="_blank">https://assembly.cornell.edu/elections/hare-system-ranked-choice-voting</a><br>
<br>
Multi-winner STV is often referred to as the "Hare-Clark"
system. It uses the Droop<br>
quota, an improvement on the Hare quota.<br>
<br>
A "majority" is basically a single-winner Droop quota.<br>
</p>
<p>Multi-winner STV also eliminates candidates. To claim that
single-winner STV and multi-winner<br>
STV work in "opposite", "not in any way similar" ways is absurd.<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;font-family:monospace;color:rgb(0,0,0)">The Hare system is defined as at-large STV/PR like the city elections in
Cambridge USA.
In three basic ways, it is the opposite of IRV, not in any way similar.
Firstly Hare system is a proportional count; IRV is a majority count.
Secondly, Hare uses at large constituencies. He advocated the exact
opposite to the Anglo-American single member system or a singlre member
system like IRV. He proposed one large multi-member system.
Thirdly, any similarity between the preference vote or ranked choice
vote used by Hare and that used by IRV is contradicted by the opposite
ways in which they are used. Hare system was an election of quotas (the
Hare quota) in the order that the electorate chose them.
The IRV ranked choice is no such thing. IRV uses an opposite sort of
count, not a proportional count but an elimination count. Hare ranked
choice is a positive choice of candidates in the voters prefered order,
reaching the equal threshold of the quota.
IRV gives the voters no control of the order in which the candidates are
elected. It merely eliminates candidates on a last past the post basis,
to manufacture a mere majority.
In sum, identifying IRV with Hare is a triple falsification of a
fundamental nature.
Regards,
Richard Lung.
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