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<p>Richard,<br>
<br>
I have a few questions and comments on your ballot with
accompanying remarks.<br>
<br>
I have trouble understanding the motivation behind "RCIPE". It
seems to me that it must<br>
elect the Condorcet winner unless, initially or after one or more
eliminations, there is a bottom<br>
cycle (and thus no Condorcet Loser) in which case it is possible
that the Condorcet winner will<br>
have the fewest top-choice votes and be eliminated.<br>
<br>
And that is why it fails Clone-Loser, because the candidates in
the bottom cycle cycle could be a<br>
set of clones and if they were replaced with a single candidate
then there would be a Condorcet<br>
loser who would be eliminated instead of possibly the Condorcet
winner.<br>
<br>
I find this all very odd, and I'm not sure what you are"buying" in
comparison with plain Hare (aka IRV).<br>
<br>
Unlike RCIPE, it meets Clone Independence and Later-no-Help and
Later-no-Harm and already meets<br>
Condorcet Loser. So you are trashing quite a bit just to get a
bit more "Condorcet efficiency".<br>
<br>
Why do you think that RP(wv) and Schulze are significantly
different from each other? There needs<br>
to be more than 3 candidates in the top cycle (aka Smith set) for
them to give different winners and<br>
I gather that even in that very rare circumstance they usually
give the same winner.<br>
<br>
And why do you think that MinMax(wv) is better than either?
Doesn't it fail Smith and Clone Independence?<br>
<br>
Why do you think Woodall is better than Benham? <br>
<br>
What is the (or your) definition of "Schwartz-Woodall" ? And
what do you think is the positive point of it<br>
compared with plain Woodall?<br>
<br>
Chris B.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<h1
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</h1>
<b
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Richard,
the VoteFair guy</b><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><span> </span></span><a
href="mailto:election-methods%40lists.electorama.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEM%5D%20Poll%2C%20preliminary%20ballots&In-Reply-To=%3Cbd743764-f4e7-4002-ad13-afe480551977%40votefair.org%3E"
title="[EM] Poll, preliminary ballots"
style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal;">electionmethods
at votefair.org</a><br
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<i
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: medium; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Wed
Apr 17 17:30:03 PDT 2024</i><span
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<p
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</p>
<hr
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<pre
style="white-space: pre-wrap; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Poll ballot from Richard Fobes, the VoteFair guy
Preliminary as of 2024-April-17
Notation:
"..." indicates a rating gap
[??] indicates haven't yet seen its description so rank is approximate
1. RCIPE -- [simple, almost Condorcet, almost cloneproof]
2. MinMax(wv) -- [best of Condorcet methods]
3. RP(wv) -- [doesn't look deep enough into pairwise preferences]
4. Woodall -- [good, Smith plus IRV]
...
5. Schwartz-Woodall -- [Woodall but harder to explain]
6. Baldwin -- [Borda version of IRV, requires honesty]
7. Copeland//Borda (also called Ranked Robin) -- [simple, requires
honest voting]
8. Black -- [Condorcet else Borda, good but tactical vulnerability]
9. Benham -- [same weakness as IRV]
10. Schulze -- [complex, increases other IIA failures to get zero clone
failures]
11. Smith//Score -- [requires honesty]
...
12. Gross Loser Elimination -- [??]
13. Max Strength Transitive Beatpath -- [??]
14. Margins-Sorted Minimum Losing Votes (equal-rated whole) -- [??]
15. Smith//DAC -- [complexity without significant advantage]
16. Double Defeat, Hare -- [??]
...
17. IRV -- ["overvotes" ignored, lowest count not always least popular,
correct ballot type]
18. Majority Judgement -- [clever, requires honesty, wrong ballot type]
19. STAR -- [vulnerable to nomination and voting tactics, dead-end
ballot type]
...
20. Approval -- [great for friends, ok for primaries, tactical
vulnerabilities]
...
21. Margins-Sorted Approval -- [??]
22. Smith//Approval (explicit) -- [complexity without significant advantage]
23. Smith//Approval (implicit) -- [cannot rank most-disliked below disliked]
...
24. Plurality -- [we are here]
...
25. Approval with manual runoff -- [two choices in "runoff" is too few!!!]</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</p>
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