<div dir="ltr">Approval, not STAR. My mistake.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 7:40 PM Michael Garman <<a href="mailto:michael.garman@rankthevote.us">michael.garman@rankthevote.us</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Who’s going to ban it? The two-party establishment? What does it say about STAR that in your vision they’ll still be around and powerful enough to ban it?<br clear="all"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span>On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 7:39 PM Michael Ossipoff <<a href="mailto:email9648742@gmail.com" target="_blank">email9648742@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><br></p></div></div></div></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 03:04 Michael Garman <<a href="mailto:michael.garman@rankthevote.us" target="_blank">michael.garman@rankthevote.us</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Would it be in use, or would it be banned? Can’t be both! :-D</div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I said that it *likely* will be banned.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">…after it causes concern by achieving significant success.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If so, it *would* be both: First succeeding bigtime, & then banned as a result.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">That will have to do, because I’m not going to again explain what I meant.</div></div></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"></div><div dir="auto"><br clear="all"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span>On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 11:57 AM Michael Ossipoff <<a href="mailto:email9648742@gmail.com" target="_blank">email9648742@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><br></p></div></div></div></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 00:22 Michael Garman <<a href="mailto:michael.garman@rankthevote.us" target="_blank">michael.garman@rankthevote.us</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir="auto"></div></div><div dir="auto">>> <span style="font-family:-apple-system,"helvetica neue";font-size:1rem;word-spacing:1px;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(49,49,49);color:rgb(49,49,49)">If Approval enactment projects had started at the same time, with equal funding, or even a lot less, it would by now be in use in all 50 states.</span><div><br></div><div dir="auto">>> <span style="font-family:-apple-system,"helvetica neue";word-spacing:1px;float:none;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(49,49,49);color:rgb(49,49,49);display:inline">Electoral reform here is just starting its 2nd try (the 1st was early 20th-century). If it ever starts to take-off, there will probably be </span><span style="font-family:-apple-system,"helvetica neue";word-spacing:1px;background-color:rgb(253,226,147);color:rgb(32,33,36)">bipartisan</span><span style="font-family:-apple-system,"helvetica neue";word-spacing:1px;float:none;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(49,49,49);color:rgb(49,49,49);display:inline">federal laws to forbid it in any form anywhere.</span></div><div dir="auto"><br></div>Which is it? You can’t have it both ways. </div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It isn’t one way. It’s both ways.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Approval would have had much easier, less expensive & faster nationwide enactment. It would take-off bigger than IRV has, & in a lot less time. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">(…but yes, then *that* degree of success happens, that’s when the outlawing is likely.)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">When electoral-reform is taking-off (2 states is just a slow insignificant beginning), there will likely be a bipartisan law outlawing all effective genuine electoral-reform m.</div></div></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><br clear="all"><br clear="all"></div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Michael J. Garman | he/him</span><br></p><p style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Digital & Campus Organizer | Rank the Vote</span></p><p style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href="https://calendly.com/michael-j-garman" style="font-family:"Times New Roman";white-space:pre-wrap" target="_blank">Book a meeting with me!</a><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></p><p style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,0,0)">(401) 644-4108 | </span><a href="mailto:michael.garman@rankthevote.us" style="font-family:"Times New Roman";white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">michael.garman@rankthevote.us</a><br></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"></div></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 8:20 AM Michael Ossipoff <<a href="mailto:email9648742@gmail.com" target="_blank">email9648742@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div></div></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></div></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 21:20 Chris Benham <<a href="mailto:cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au" target="_blank">cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<p><br>
It can be difficult to be sure what is "propose-able" in the US
and what isn't (especially from outside <br>
of it.) Sometimes relatively complicated things seem to catch on
while no-one seems to be excited<br>
about Approval.</p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">Relatively complicated things like what? The most complicated thing that’s been “catching on” IRV. I used quotes because I’ve heard that few understand it. Progressive political parties, & some progressives like it because FairVote’s if spending can buy a lot of success. It has nothing to do with merit or understandability.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">To catch on without FairVote’s humungous spending would require genuine understandability & simplicity. FairVote got IRV adopted in 2 states… in 35 years. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">:-D …not much to show f 35 years.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If Approval enactment projects had started at the same time, with equal funding, or even a lot less, it would by now be in use in all 50 states.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">…& you mustn’t believe that EM’s complicated methods aren’t more complicated than IRV. :-)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><p dir="auto"><br>
<br>
I am not sure if Margins Sorted Approval (specified) is
"unproposably complex" or not. <br>
</p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">I assure you that it is.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><p dir="auto"><br>
I suspect Smith//DAC might be, but I don't know.</p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">You’re right; it is.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><p dir="auto"><br>
<br>
My three favourites with a big emphasis on simplicity and general
"bang-for-buck" are:<br>
<br>
Smith//Approval (Ranking)<br>
<br>
Hare (unrestricted and uncompelled strict ranking)<br>
<br>
Approval</p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">👍👍🏆🏆</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Two excellent ones, out of three, isn’t bad at all.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><p dir="auto"><br>
<br>
And my least preferred by those criteria include:<br>
<br>
STAR<br>
<br>
Approval with top-two manual Runoff<br>
<br>
Majority Judgement (and other Median Ratings methods)</p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">I wouldn’t propose any of those.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><p dir="auto"><br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
<br>
</p><blockquote type="cite">
<h1 style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</h1>
<b style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Kristofer
Munsterhjelm</b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;float:none;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman""> </span></span><a href="mailto:election-methods%40lists.electorama.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEM%5D%20Poll%20on%20voting-systems%2C%0A%20to%20inform%20voters%20in%20upcoming%20enactment-elections&In-Reply-To=%3C0f3688fb-e2c1-8618-f5fe-091cc3fc5cea%40t-online.de%3E" title="[EM] Poll on voting-systems, to inform voters in upcoming enactment-elections" style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal" target="_blank">km_elmet
at t-online.de</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">
<i style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Fri
Apr 12 16:05:24 PDT 2024</i><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;float:none;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"></span>
<p style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</p>
<hr style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;font-family:monospace;color:rgb(0,0,0)">On 2024-04-12 22:37, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
><i style="font-family:monospace"> Right!! That’s something I wanted to say. I’m removing Schulze from the
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> upper part of my ranking for that reason, & replacing it with
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> Smith//Approval(implicit).
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace">
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> How about we say to rank in order of overall merit for public
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> proposal…which includes proposability?
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace">
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> Then the unproposably complex methods could be left unranked or ranked
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> near bottom.
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace">
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> Or take it a step further & trim the candidate-set to only include
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> proposable methods? But might it be quicker to just let that be a voting
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> judgment, instead of having to do that evaluation as a separate
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> preliminary collective evaluation, which would delay the voting?
</i>
I would prefer that the merit question for the poll stays the same:
"which voting methods do you prefer to which others?", i.e. ranking them
in preference.
Then it would be up to the individual voter to consider what aspects of
the method are most important; and anyone who wants to use it to guide
reform can just screen away the unproposable methods.
After all, we have to do that anyway, because it's pretty much
impossible to collapse disparate concerns into a single order without
making some assumptions about which concerns are most important. Would I
recommend Benham ahead of Schulze? Well, that depends on whether there's
tons of strategy in the place in question and whether they (and I) can
accept the nonmonotonicity.
In the absence of any such situational information, any order will be
imperfect. In any case, if the poll's output ranking ends up being like
Extrinsic Borda-Weighted Landau Intersection > Iterative Refinement
Keener + Sinkhorn (mean) > Schulze > RP > Approval > IRV,
then it's a simple matter for reformers to just discard everything above
Schulze (or RP) for a public proposal. In practice, I doubt the exotic
methods will rank that high anyway.
-km</pre>
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----<br>
Election-Methods mailing list - see <a href="https://electorama.com/em" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://electorama.com/em</a> for list info<br>
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