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<p>Ted,<br>
<br>
Thanks for that explanation.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">while margin sorted approval is an
excellent method, the approval cutoff (what I prefer to think of
as a preference cutoff, since all ranked candidates are
approved)</blockquote>
<br>
I haven't heard that version suggested, and it isn't what I had in
mind when I nominated it in the poll, as I specified at the time.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">MarginsSorted Approval (specified cutoff):
<br>
<br>
Voters rank from the top however many candidates they wish and
can also specify an approval<br>
cutoff/threshold. Default approval is only for candidates ranked
below no others (i.e. ranked top<br>
or equal-top).</blockquote>
<br>
It occurred to to suggest separate "technical merit" and
"bang-for-buck" polls, but people have different (and/or not
clear) ideas on exactly what is "bang" and what is "buck".<br>
<br>
Another idea is to talk about what we consider to be the best
and/or acceptable balloting rules, and those that are or are
likely to be imposed by the "real world".<br>
<br>
And then we could have separate polls on methods for the different
ballot rules. Some methods are much more sensitive to these
details than others. <br>
<br>
With the poll as it is I top-rank Margins Sorted Approval
(specified cutoff) but other methods (such as this one you
nominated) might make it to equal-top on my final ballot.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
A Forrest Simmons invention. Candidates are listed in approval
score order and if any adjacent pairs<br>
are pairwise out of order then this is corrected by flipping the
out-of-order pair with the smallest<br>
margin. If there is a tie for this we flip the less approved
pair. Repeat until there are no adjacent pairs<br>
of candidates that are pairwise out of order, then elect the
highest-ordered candidate.</blockquote>
</p>
<p>More later.<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/04/2024 9:27 am, Ted Stern wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAHGFzOR4ucJZ-TX4=RrnvcyeRGg-R+p+pctw=MSF-efMqgsXuw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">PS to previous:
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Since the condorcet winner doesn't have a min lv
score, minlv score could be either 0%, 100%, or 50% by
default. </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 16:54
Ted Stern <<a href="mailto:dodecatheon@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">dodecatheon@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">Chris, what I nominated for the poll was
essentially the same as what you proposed in October of
2016, but simplified to require no elimination step
iteration. Just one margin sort on MinLV(erw).
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><a
href="http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2016-October/000599.html"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2016-October/000599.html</a><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">ERW means that if A and B have equal rank
above bottom, we fill in the pairwise array as if it were
one whole vote of A>B and one whole vote of B>A.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">The reason I proposed it is that seeding the
margin sort with MinLV score in descending order is
analogous to minimum pairwise opposition in ascending
order. MinMaxPO is burial resistant, the property we're
looking for, and for margin sort, we want a metric that is
analogous to approval, with descending scores. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">If we wanted the <i>exact</i> complement,
we would do margin sort on <i>min votes</i>, to get the
closest approximation to MinMaxPO(wv) possible while still
being Smith compliant. However, minmax (or rather maxmin)
is not clone proof, as can be seen by applying margin sort
min votes to the example you posted last week:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><a
href="http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2024-April/005616.html"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2024-April/005616.html</a></div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">By using minLV instead of min votes, C's
minimum score of 18 (with clone) is ignored and so the
seed ranking before margin sort is unchanged by the
addition of the clone.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">My motivation for the nomination: while
margin sorted approval is an excellent method, the
approval cutoff (what I prefer to think of as a preference
cutoff, since all ranked candidates are approved) is an
additional step, requiring either an additional count for
implicit approval, or an extra mental judgment by the
voter. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Margin Sorted MinLV(erw) is automatic, and
from my limited testing, tends to find a candidate with
strong top ratings. </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 11, 2024,
01:17 Chris Benham <<a
href="mailto:cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Ted,<br>
<br>
I'm not completely clear on what the "equal rated
whole" part means, and likely there are some other
possible<br>
voters who have no idea what any of it means.<br>
<br>
This is what I think it all means.<br>
<br>
Voters rank the candidates from the top, equal ranking
an truncation allowed. Then we construct a pairwise
matrix.<br>
<br>
A ballot voting A over B gives one vote in the A-B
comparison to A and nothing to B. A ballot that
truncates (or votes<br>
equal-bottom) both A and B gives nothing to both in
the A-B comparison.<br>
<br>
But in the case a ballot explicitly votes A=B above
bottom, do you propose that the ballot give a whole
vote each to<br>
A and B in the A-B comparison? (Until I hear otherwise
from you, I'll assume this is what you mean.)<br>
<br>
An alternative reasonable idea would be for this to be
only the case where the ballot votes A and B below no
other<br>
candidates, and if they are voted A=B above bottom but
below top then the ballot gives half a vote to each of
A and<br>
B in the A-B comparison.<br>
<br>
In any case I understand that we score each candidate
according to the minimum number of votes they got in a
pairwise<br>
loss, and order them from highest to lowest.<br>
<br>
Then candidates are listed in score order and if any
adjacent pairs are pairwise out of order then this is
corrected by <br>
flipping the out-of-order pair with the smallest
margin. If there is a tie for this we flip the lowest
scored tied pair. Repeat until <br>
there are no adjacent pairs of candidates that are
pairwise out of order, then elect the highest-ordered
candidate.<br>
<br>
I am favourably disposed to this, but I'd like some
clarification (and hopefully some de-confusing
justification) on the issue<br>
of how we treat equal ranking (or "rating").<br>
<br>
Chris Benham<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<h1
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New Roman";font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br>
</h1>
<b
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">Ted
Stern</b><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline!important;float:none"><span> </span></span><a
href="mailto:election-methods%40lists.electorama.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEM%5D%20Poll%20on%20voting-systems%2C%0A%20to%20inform%20voters%20in%20upcoming%20enactment-elections&In-Reply-To=%3CCAHGFzOTaPTdMnVw7TELxExvM4ZjbAEtaxJWZ-%2Bpcttf4ATXhPw%40mail.gmail.com%3E"
title="[EM] Poll on voting-systems, to inform voters in upcoming enactment-elections"
style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">dodecatheon
at gmail.com</a><br
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">
<i
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">Sat
Apr 6 12:33:35 PDT 2024</i><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline!important;float:none"></span>
<p
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br>
</p>
<hr
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">
<pre
style="white-space:pre-wrap;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">I'd like to nominate
Margin Sorted Minimum Losing Votes (equal rated whole)</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
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