<div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 21:20 Chris Benham <<a href="mailto:cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au">cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><u></u>
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<p><br>
It can be difficult to be sure what is "propose-able" in the US
and what isn't (especially from outside <br>
of it.) Sometimes relatively complicated things seem to catch on
while no-one seems to be excited<br>
about Approval.</p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">Relatively complicated things like what? The most complicated thing that’s been “catching on” IRV. I used quotes because I’ve heard that few understand it. Progressive political parties, & some progressives like it because FairVote’s if spending can buy a lot of success. It has nothing to do with merit or understandability.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">To catch on without FairVote’s humungous spending would require genuine understandability & simplicity. FairVote got IRV adopted in 2 states… in 35 years. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">:-D …not much to show f 35 years.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If Approval enactment projects had started at the same time, with equal funding, or even a lot less, it would by now be in use in all 50 states.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">…& you mustn’t believe that EM’s complicated methods aren’t more complicated than IRV. :-)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><p dir="auto"><br>
<br>
I am not sure if Margins Sorted Approval (specified) is
"unproposably complex" or not. <br>
</p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">I assure you that it is.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><p dir="auto"><br>
I suspect Smith//DAC might be, but I don't know.</p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">You’re right; it is.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><p dir="auto"><br>
<br>
My three favourites with a big emphasis on simplicity and general
"bang-for-buck" are:<br>
<br>
Smith//Approval (Ranking)<br>
<br>
Hare (unrestricted and uncompelled strict ranking)<br>
<br>
Approval</p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">👍👍🏆🏆</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Two excellent ones, out of three, isn’t bad at all.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><p dir="auto"><br>
<br>
And my least preferred by those criteria include:<br>
<br>
STAR<br>
<br>
Approval with top-two manual Runoff<br>
<br>
Majority Judgement (and other Median Ratings methods)</p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">I wouldn’t propose any of those.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><p dir="auto"><br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
<br>
</p><blockquote type="cite">
<h1 style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</h1>
<b style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Kristofer
Munsterhjelm</b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;float:none;display:inline!important;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman""> </span></span><a href="mailto:election-methods%40lists.electorama.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEM%5D%20Poll%20on%20voting-systems%2C%0A%20to%20inform%20voters%20in%20upcoming%20enactment-elections&In-Reply-To=%3C0f3688fb-e2c1-8618-f5fe-091cc3fc5cea%40t-online.de%3E" title="[EM] Poll on voting-systems, to inform voters in upcoming enactment-elections" style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal" target="_blank">km_elmet
at t-online.de</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">
<i style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Fri
Apr 12 16:05:24 PDT 2024</i><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;float:none;display:inline!important;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span>
<p style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</p>
<hr style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;font-family:monospace;color:rgb(0,0,0)">On 2024-04-12 22:37, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
><i style="font-family:monospace"> Right!! That’s something I wanted to say. I’m removing Schulze from the
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> upper part of my ranking for that reason, & replacing it with
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> Smith//Approval(implicit).
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace">
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> How about we say to rank in order of overall merit for public
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> proposal…which includes proposability?
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace">
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> Then the unproposably complex methods could be left unranked or ranked
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> near bottom.
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace">
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> Or take it a step further & trim the candidate-set to only include
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> proposable methods? But might it be quicker to just let that be a voting
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> judgment, instead of having to do that evaluation as a separate
</i>><i style="font-family:monospace"> preliminary collective evaluation, which would delay the voting?
</i>
I would prefer that the merit question for the poll stays the same:
"which voting methods do you prefer to which others?", i.e. ranking them
in preference.
Then it would be up to the individual voter to consider what aspects of
the method are most important; and anyone who wants to use it to guide
reform can just screen away the unproposable methods.
After all, we have to do that anyway, because it's pretty much
impossible to collapse disparate concerns into a single order without
making some assumptions about which concerns are most important. Would I
recommend Benham ahead of Schulze? Well, that depends on whether there's
tons of strategy in the place in question and whether they (and I) can
accept the nonmonotonicity.
In the absence of any such situational information, any order will be
imperfect. In any case, if the poll's output ranking ends up being like
Extrinsic Borda-Weighted Landau Intersection > Iterative Refinement
Keener + Sinkhorn (mean) > Schulze > RP > Approval > IRV,
then it's a simple matter for reformers to just discard everything above
Schulze (or RP) for a public proposal. In practice, I doubt the exotic
methods will rank that high anyway.
-km</pre>
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