<div dir="auto">Oh, sorry, I misread whom the post was from. It was originally from Garman, not Chris.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I realize & acknowledge that STAR & Smith//Score are both nominated. Sorry about missing that at first.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 6, 2024 at 15:32 Michael Ossipoff <<a href="mailto:email9648742@gmail.com">email9648742@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">I haven’t blocked you. I’ve only blocked Bristow, Garman, & Toby Pereira.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I have no right to decree what can or can’t be nominated. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">You nominated STAR, so it’s nominated.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">There’s a big difference between EqualVote & FairVote. I admit that my intention wasn’t in keeping with objective information-sharing, but it was for a well-meaning reason.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I’m not doing this to attack IRV. I want to expose the unpopularity of FairVote’s proposal. It’s not against IRV. I’ve said that Hare might work if it were honestly offered. But there’s nothing honest about FairVote.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Anyway I didn’t block you, & of course STAR is nominated, since you nominated it.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Peace!</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 6, 2024 at 13:45 Chris Benham <<a href="mailto:cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au" target="_blank">cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
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<br>
-------- Forwarded Message --------
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap align="RIGHT">Subject:
</th>
<td>Re: [EM] Poll on voting-systems, to inform voters in
upcoming enactment-elections</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
<td>Sat, 6 Apr 2024 17:42:43 +0200</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap align="RIGHT">From: </th>
<td>Michael Garman <a href="mailto:michael.garman@rankthevote.us" target="_blank"><michael.garman@rankthevote.us></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap align="RIGHT">To: </th>
<td>Michael Ossipoff <a href="mailto:email9648742@gmail.com" target="_blank"><email9648742@gmail.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap align="RIGHT">CC: </th>
<td>Chris Benham <a href="mailto:cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au" target="_blank"><cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au></a>, Kevin
Venzke <a href="mailto:stepjak@yahoo.fr" target="_blank"><stepjak@yahoo.fr></a>,
<a href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com" target="_blank">election-methods@lists.electorama.com</a>
<a href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com" target="_blank"><election-methods@lists.electorama.com></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<div dir="auto">>> <span style="font-family:-apple-system,helveticaneue;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)">what
if it finishes low here? That would be worse for the Eugene
initiative than not including it.</span><br>
<br clear="all">
I thought this poll was meant to be an objective search for the
truth, not a cudgel to advance an agenda. I also think you’re
vastly overestimating the influence this little poll is going to
have. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">In any case, I’m nominating STAR. Someone please
relay the message to Ossipoff as I believe he’s blocked me. </div>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Michael J. Garman | he/him</span><br>
</p>
<p style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Digital & Campus Organizer | Rank the Vote</span></p>
<p style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href="https://calendly.com/michael-j-garman" style="font-family:"Times New Roman";white-space:pre-wrap" target="_blank">Book a meeting with me!</a><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
</span></p>
<p style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,0,0)">(401) 644-4108 | </span><a href="mailto:michael.garman@rankthevote.us" style="font-family:"Times New Roman";white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">michael.garman@rankthevote.us</a><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 6, 2024 at 2:16
PM Michael Ossipoff <<a href="mailto:email9648742@gmail.com" target="_blank">email9648742@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">This is to acknowledge the nominations of
Smith//Default-Approval, Smith//Explicit-Approval,
Margins-Sorted Approval, & Smith//DAC.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I’d say include STAR, because that’s what
its advocates would want. …or would they? Its enactment
is going to be voted-on in Eugene next month, & what
if it finishes low here? That would be worse for the
Eugene initiative than not including it.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Of course showing voters about methods’
popularity here is my stated-purpose for the poll, &
the fact that it’s about to be voted on for enactment
would seem to suggest including it. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">But the advocates of STAR have been working
hard, completely in good faith, & STAR is a lot better
than IRV. Those are two good reasons to let EqualVote
decide on STAR’s inclusion in the poll.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I’ll ask the EqualVote group, & go by
what they say.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">(In fact STAR, while more complicated than
Approval, has nothing like the amount of count-complexity
of Condorcet, or the consequent amount of count-insecurity
& count-fraud vulnerability. I personally don’t
propose STAR, because I regard it as an inbetween
compromise between Approval & the ranked-methods,
& I want the absolutely minimal. (I only propose
Condorcet to jurisdictions where people insist on
rankings.) …but, by my simplicity-standard, STAR scores
high, even though I don’t propose it.)</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">So the nominations list so-far is now
(listed in order of nomination):</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Approval</div>
<div dir="auto">RP(wv)</div>
<div dir="auto">Schulze</div>
<div dir="auto">IRV</div>
<div dir="auto">Plurality</div>
<div dir="auto">MinMax(wv)</div>
<div dir="auto">Black</div>
<div dir="auto">Baldwin </div>
<div dir="auto">Benham</div>
<div dir="auto">Woodall</div>
<div dir="auto">Schwartz-Woodall</div>
<div dir="auto">Smith//Approval (of all ranked)</div>
<div dir="auto">Smith//Approval (of what is specified)</div>
<div dir="auto">Margin-Sorted Approval</div>
<div dir="auto">Smith//DAC</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 6, 2024 at
04:03 Chris Benham <<a href="mailto:cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au" target="_blank">cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p><br>
I would like to nominate several methods.<br>
<br>
Smith//Approval (Ranking):<br>
<br>
Voters rank from the top only those candidates
they "approve", equal-ranking allowed,<br>
the most approved member of the voted Smith set
wins.<br>
<br>
Smith//Approval (specified cutoff):<br>
<br>
Voters rank from the top however many candidates
they wish and can also specify an approval<br>
cutoff/threshold. Default approval is only for
candidates ranked below no others (i.e. ranked top<br>
or equal-top).<br>
The most approved member of the Smith set wins.<br>
<br>
Margins Sorted Approval (specified cutoff):<br>
<br>
Voters rank from the top however many candidates
they wish and can also specify an approval<br>
cutoff/threshold. Default approval is only for
candidates ranked below no others (i.e. ranked top<br>
or equal-top).<br>
<br>
A Forrest Simmons invention. Candidates are listed
in approval score order and if any adjacent pairs<br>
are pairwise out of order then this is corrected
by flipping the out-of-order pair with the
smallest<br>
margin. If there is a tie for this we flip the
less approved pair. Repeat until there are no
adjacent pairs<br>
of candidates that are pairwise out of order, then
elect the highest-ordered candidate.<br>
<br>
Smith//:DAC<br>
<br>
Voters rank from the top however many candidates
they wish, equal-ranking allowed.<br>
Eliminate candidates not in the Smith set and then
apply Woodall's Descending Acquiescing Coalitions
method.<br>
<br>
There is a method I hate that is apparently
contending in the real world: "STAR". Given the
stated purpose of <br>
this poll, is there a case for including it?<br>
<br>
Chris Benham<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"><b style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Michael
Ossipoff</b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;float:none;display:inline!important;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman""> </span></span><a href="mailto:election-methods%40lists.electorama.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEM%5D%20Poll%20on%20voting-systems%2C%0A%20to%20inform%20voters%20in%20upcoming%20enactment-elections&In-Reply-To=%3CCAOKDY5BkSGJkX%3D7zWXBr2t1SBNVMNj96wm-T8ubvr_wGM5h51w%40mail.gmail.com%3E" title="[EM] Poll on voting-systems, to inform voters in upcoming enactment-elections" style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal" target="_blank">email9648742
at gmail.com</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">
<i style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Wed
Apr 3 22:13:28 PDT 2024</i><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;float:none;display:inline!important;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span>
<p style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</p>
<hr style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;font-family:monospace;color:rgb(0,0,0)">EM used to do a lot of polls, but now never does. So I wouldn’t propose
one, if it weren’t for the fact that, this year, the voters of at least two
states are going to vote on whether to enact a certain voting-system.
It seems to me—tell me if I’m wrong—that those people have a right to know
how people familiar with voting-systems feel about the relative merits of
some voting-systems.
So, though I claim that polls are valuable for demonstrating the experience
of using the voting systems, & how they work, & what they’ll do—& are
therefore useful & worthwhile for their own sake—this poll that I now
propose isn’t a poll for its own sake.
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
The voting-method for the poll:
It seems to me that Schulze is the most popular ranked voting-system, among
the people at EM.
…& it seems to me that the last time we voted on EM’s collective favorite
voting-system, Approval won.
Those seem the top-two, in EM popularity.</pre>
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</blockquote>
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