<div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 09:53 Toby Pereira <<a href="mailto:tdp201b@yahoo.co.uk">tdp201b@yahoo.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"></div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Arguably one problem with approval voting is that people might refuse to approve the "lesser evil" of the two main candidates because they see it as a vote for and an endorsement of them. </div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Good.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">…&, if they do approve evil, they don’t like him, & so they also approve the better candidate, whom they like better.</div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">[…]</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">[quote]</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small"> Under FPTP, people will often say they could not vote for x, even if it's between x and y, and they prefer x to y. This is likely to carry over into approval voting. </span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">[/quote]</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">You better believe it.</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">[quote]</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">Obviously under approval voting, the hope is that higher quality candidates will be in the running (as has been argued for Stein in this case), but this is not guaranteed to always happen.</span><br></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">[\quote]</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">Usually there are Progressives.</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></span></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Toby</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div>
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On Friday, 22 March 2024 at 06:43:17 GMT, Michael Ossipoff <<a href="mailto:email9648742@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">email9648742@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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</div></div></div><div><div id="m_8678707935552843311ydp6859206byahoo_quoted_1558797560"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"></div></div></div></div><div><div id="m_8678707935552843311ydp6859206byahoo_quoted_1558797560"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><div id="m_8678707935552843311ydp6859206byiv6420151912" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Some pragmatics:</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div>What would happen this November if we were using Approval?<div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">There are lesser-evil hold-your-nose voters who are going to vote for Biden though they don’t like him, because they think they have to accept lesser-evil because (I guess?) they’ve been told that everyone else wants evil</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">:-)</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Those people would probably approve Biden, whether they really approve of him or not.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">But they’d also approve Jill Stein, because they prefer her (though they now, with Plurality, mistakenly believe it unrealistic to vote for her).</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Polls show something like 70% of Americans don’t want the Democrats or Republicans, & want different parties.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Polls show that the same % want a lot of policies that are the opposite of what the Republocratic party are imposing on them.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">The policies that they say they want are the ones that the Greens offer. No I’m not electioneering. It isn’t possible to discuss voting without sometimes saying something like that. It’s necessary to speak of pragmatics, & that requires specifics.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">My reason for saying that is to support my claim that those people who now are going to vote for Biden as lesser-evil, would, in Approval, also approve Jill Stein.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Just about everyone who approves Joe would approve Jill.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">But many (including me) who approve Jill would never consider approving Joe !!!</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Therefore Jill would beat Joe & Donald.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">——-</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Approval’s Myerson-Weber equilibrium is at the voter-median. …& so Approval quickly homes in on the CW.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">A Myerson-Weber equilibrium is an outcome that is consistent with, & therefore appears to confirm, the assumptions that led to that outcome.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">——-</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Advantages of Approval over ranks-methods:</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Approval is the absolutely minimal voting-system that allows & counts free expression of acceptance or merit, & comparisons of it, among several or many candidates in a multicandidate election.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">…& is therefore the unique completely unarbitrary method.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">With any other method, people will ask, “But why *this* method among all the many others?”</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Approval isn’t subject to that question, because there’s only one absolutely minimal method.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Approval is uniquely easy to define, explain, propose, enact, administer, & security-audit against count-fraud.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Those are a lot of big, & absolutely-necessary, advantages.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Let’s start with count-fraud:</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">If there are 20 candidates, Approval has 20 vote-totals to sum, keep track of, audit & send to Central-Count </div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Condorcet has 380 pairwise votes to calculate, sum, keep track of, audit & send to Central-Count.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">About 20 times more vote-totals.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Additionally, in Approval, it’s only necessary to increment a number when encountering a vote.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">…while, in Condorcet, each pairwise vote must first be found by running a subroutine on a ranking.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">So, overall, how many times more computation does Condorcet need?</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">A hundred times more? Several hundred times more?</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">How about a handcount audit?</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">For Condorcet ? :-D</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Now chance.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">A spot-check?</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">It would have to be a much tinier spot, sample.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Did you know that, after both of Dubya’s elections, Harper’s Magazine reported mountains of evidence for big count-fraud?</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Don’t ignore or discount count-fraud. Minimizing the chance of successful count-fraud is absolutely-essential.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">This concludes p</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Part 2. </div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Part 3 (of 3) will be along next.</div><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br></div></div>
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