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<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Message: 3: Needless voting disappointments<br>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 09:29:54 +0000<br>
From: Richard Lung <voting@ukscientists.com><br>
To: steve bosworth <stevebosworth@hotmail.com>,</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">"<a href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com" id="OWA5b22acbf-eaf8-a26d-65c6-93178a7d1bd1" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">election-methods@lists.electorama.com</a>"</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;" class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Subject: Re: [EM] New Thread: Needless voting disappointments<br>
Message-ID: <d32d5c79-9620-48bc-849e-1bc157045357@ukscientists.com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Hello Richard,</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Thank you for your response and l propose to answer your points in line.<br>
<br>
R: Hello Steve,<br>
"about 50% of the voters are disappointed when using plurality voting,<br>
and over 10% are disappointed when using STV or CPO-STV."<br>
<br>
This is about right but it would be false of the original Hare system,<br>
making one constituency of the nation.”</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;" class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">1-S: Yes, but for clarity, let's start with STV where the nation is one constituency. For
this context, however, I see using EPR as better in respecting and revealing the "pluralist" reality of our society that you correctly mention. This is because ordinal "preferences" are not as expressive of each voter's scale of values as are the evaluative,
yet, still ordinal adjectives people use all the time, such as Excellent, Very Good, Good, Acceptable, etc. For example, a voter does not necessarily view their 1<sup>st
</sup>preference candidate as Excellently suited for office. Such adjectives enable each voter to express themselves more meaningfully. Consequently, the EPR post-election report will also inform the public much more completely. How every voter values every
candidate is published. This snapshot of all these judgments would also enable analysts better to infer both the numbers and intensities with which the different campaigns in their society are being supported. What do you think? Please a</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(68, 50, 5);">lso
see 5-S: below</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(201, 33, 30);">.</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">R: “And it did not mean the voters would have to make 500 or so preferences.”
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">2-S: The same is true of EPR. However, please not that I see the link I mentioned describing how an EPR is counted
is simpler for ordinary voters to understand than STV’s count: <a href="https://www.jpolrisk.com/legislatures-elected-by-evaluative-proportional-representation-epr-an-algorithm-v3/" id="OWAa4e6c0b9-8bfa-edd5-04b2-9bc14fc8b40e" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
https://www.jpolrisk.com/legislatures-elected-by-evaluative-proportional-representation-epr-an-algorithm-v3/</a>. At the same time, like ordinary STV, EPR’s ballots can also be counted so that each elected member has only one in of the legislative body. Alternatively,
each of their respective counts have the potential to allow each elected member to have a weighted vote in the assembly which would be exactly equal to the total number of citizens’ ballots that had been counted in their support. If so, this would seem to
provide more faithful representation on average for each voter. What do you think?</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">R:”There would be enough variety in the modest number of preferences made by each voter, to ensure<br>
extreme proportionality of the sort envisioned by this writer”. </span><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">3-S: Yes, but this variety would be expressed even more exactly by using EPR.</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">R: “The only qualification, and an important one, is that society has a pluralist<br>
rather than a monolithic media.</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">(Some reformers tagged Condorcet pairing onto STV. I remember that Dr<br>
Hill used a Condorcet pairing supplement to decide a final run-off<br>
between runners up.)”</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">4-S: No comment.<br>
<br>
R: “With regard to grading candidates, in my opinion, this is a step<br>
backward from ordinal voting.’’</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">5-S: I’m perplexed by you thinking grade are “backward.” In the context of my above view that grades are more
expressive than preference (please see above, 1-S), it seems that the same is true of both of ordinal and cardinal numbers when it comes to an adult trying briefly to express their judgments about the suitability for office of any candidate. If anyone judging
such suitability were to give me either their “preference” or a number, this would immediately beg the questions, Why? What does that preference or number mean? What do you think?</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">R: “From the point of view of scales of measurement, the classificatory scale is more primitive and less<br>
accurate than the ordinal scale. Cardinal numbers are more powerful than ordinal numbers. But that is why<br>
the vote also has a count, and is not a reason for abolishing the ordinal vote, determining the preferential sequence of the count,</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">6-S: As I see it, using ordinal adjectives does not “abolish the ordinal vote” but instead enhances it. At the
same time, the absolute necessity of using cardinal number is to count each citizen as one, and the vote of each to continue to count as one, to the fullest extent possible. This cardinal equality of citizens seems best provided by the above suggestion that
each member of a legislature should have his or her exact weighted vote: best if provided by EPR, second best if provided by using a modified form of STV. Either would guarantee that each voter will most likely see one of the elected candidates as represent
their hopes and concerns. The same is not true of the “Cumulative-vote family of election systems)” you mention. What do you think?</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">7-S: We started our dialogue by talking about a single national constituency. However, please note that a constituency
city election of a seven-member council (as was the case in the city in which I live), just over 10% of all the ballots cast could no have help to elect any candidate if ordinary STV were used. Therefore, needless disappointment would occur. In contrast, if
EPR were used instead, again 100% of all voters’ ballots would support the whole council in the most informative way.</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">I look forward our dialogue, of course, all are invited.</span></p>
<p style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Stephen<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Richard Lung.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 19/03/2024 04:49, steve bosworth wrote:<br>
><br>
> *<br>
> *<br>
><br>
> *Needless disappointments result from electing legislative bodies<br>
> using plurality, STV, or CPO-STV*<br>
><br>
><br>
> Structurally, different portions of all the voters fail to help elect<br>
> their favored candidate for a legislative body. For example, when<br>
> electing a seven-member city council; about 50% of the voters are<br>
> disappointed when using plurality voting, and over 10% are<br>
> disappointed when using STV or CPO-STV. However, all these<br>
> disappointments are needless because a new and better way of voting<br>
> guarantees that _every voter_ is most likely to see one of the elected<br>
> members as representing their hopes and concerns. This system is<br>
> called evaluative-proportional representation (EPR):<br>
><br>
> <<a href="https://www.jpolrisk.com/legislatures-elected-by-evaluative-proportional-representation-epr-an-algorithm-v3/" id="OWAa76c36cd-504b-04aa-1c10-a08403205e99" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">https://www.jpolrisk.com/legislatures-elected-by-evaluative-proportional-representation-epr-an-algorithm-v3/</a>>algorithm-v3/<br>
<br>
><br>
> Each EPR ballot invites the voter to grade the suitability for office<br>
> of at least one of the candidates as either Excellent, Very Good,<br>
> Good, or Acceptable. Voters can grade as many of the candidates as<br>
> they want, and give the same grade to more than one candidate.<br>
><br>
> All these grades are counted to assure each voter that their one vote<br>
> is add to the total of the elected candidate who received their<br>
> highest available grade.<br>
><br>
> What do you think of the arguments detailed in the above link?<br>
></span></p>
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