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<p>Kristofer,<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Do you think that my example:
<i>B>A>C>D>E>F>X
</i><i> leads A to win, but
</i><i>
</i><i> B>A>X>C>D>E>F
</i><i>
</i><i> leads B to win.
</i>
is an instance of pushover? If so, there may be ranked methods that fail
it even though they're monotone, and the problem isn't limited to rated
methods alone.</pre>
</blockquote>
</p>
<p>To be honest I haven't been thinking about Push-over as something
only about ballots and<br>
outcomes, independent of voter intentions based on their knowledge
of of how the voting<br>
algorithm works.<br>
<br>
But if forced to limit myself to defining it in terms of ballots
and outcomes, then my answer is<br>
yes (but with more information, maybe not "definitely yes").<br>
<br>
If, given how the algorithm works and the voter's knowledge of it
and his knowledge or correct<br>
guesses about how others voted he could reasonably expect that
raising X in that way would change<br>
the winner to one he more prefers, and that's the only reason he
did it; then obviously the voter<br>
has used a pushover strategy.<br>
<br>
But at the other extreme, if he just sincerely changed his mind
about X, and as far as he knew that<br>
was not likely to change the result regarding any non-X candidates
or if it was possible for that to <br>
happen it was just as likely to be in a direction he didn't like
as one he did; then I'd say the voter<br>
voted sincerely and was just lucky.<br>
<br>
Chris B.<br>
<br>
</p>
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!important; float: none;"><span> </span></span><a
href="mailto:election-methods%40lists.electorama.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEM%5D%20St.%20Louis%20and%20Pushover%20%28Re%3A%20Reply%20to%20Rob%20regarding%20RCV%29&In-Reply-To=%3C50156fc9-db6b-7916-328f-f8cd71da21af%40t-online.de%3E"
title="[EM] St. Louis and Pushover (Re: Reply to Rob regarding
RCV)" style="font-family: "Times New Roman";
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<i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New
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<hr style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">On 10/2/23 07:07, C.Benham wrote:
><i> Kristofer,
</i>><i>
</i>><i> What does "IIRC" mean?
</i>
If I Recall Correctly.
><i>
</i>>><i> I can see two ways to interpret pushover. The definition from
</i>>><i> Electowiki is:
</i>>><i>
</i>>><i> "Push-over is a type of tactical voting that is only useful in methods
</i>>><i> that violate monotonicity. It may involve a voter ranking or rating an
</i>>><i> alternative lower in the hope of getting it elected, or ranking or
</i>>><i> rating an alternative higher in the hope of defeating it."
</i>><i>
</i>><i> Courtesy of someone (I'm sure a promoter of STAR) Electowiki has been
</i>><i> made much worse (IMHO) than it used to be, and so is now not great.
</i>><i>
</i>><i> The older definition you helpfully recovered from Condorcet.org :
</i>>><i> *push-over*
</i>>><i> The strategy of ranking a weak alternative higher than one's preferred
</i>>><i> alternative, which may be useful in a method that violates
</i>>><i> monotonicity
</i>>><i> <<a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20090713234702/http://www.condorcet.org:80/emr/defn.shtml#monotonicity" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://web.archive.org/web/20090713234702/http://www.condorcet.org:80/emr/defn.shtml#monotonicity</a>>.
</i>>><i> *monotonicity*
</i>>><i> The property of a method where an alternative can never be made to
</i>>><i> succeed by being ranked lower on some ballots. Doing this is using
</i>>><i> the "push-over
</i>>><i> <<a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20090713234702/http://www.condorcet.org:80/emr/defn.shtml#push-over" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://web.archive.org/web/20090713234702/http://www.condorcet.org:80/emr/defn.shtml#push-over</a>>" strategy.
</i>><i>
</i>><i> I think this old Blake Cretney definition is right if we assume strict
</i>><i> ranking ballots (i.e. no above-bottom equal-ranking allowed).
</i>><i>
</i>>><i> A strict interpretation considers "defeating it" to mean "turn the
</i>>><i> candidate from winning to no longer winning".
</i>><i>
</i>><i> No, I think it is about raising a "weak" candidate in order to "defeat
</i>><i> it" (and thereby win the election) instead of losing to a stronger
</i>><i> candidate in the final decisive part
</i>><i> of the election process.
</i>><i>
</i>><i> You seem to be right about STAR meeting mono-raise. I suspect that the
</i>><i> Electowiki entry is an attempt to define Push-over in such a way that it
</i>><i> can't be a problem for STAR.
</i>
I don't know if it's intentionally made more vague to support STAR.
Believing in ignorance before malice, I would just assume it's just a
vague definition.
Do you think that my example:
>><i> B>A>C>D>E>F>X
</i>>><i>
</i>>><i> leads A to win, but
</i>>><i>
</i>>><i> B>A>X>C>D>E>F
</i>>><i>
</i>>><i> leads B to win.
</i>
is an instance of pushover? If so, there may be ranked methods that fail
it even though they're monotone, and the problem isn't limited to rated
methods alone.
-km</pre>
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