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<p>Toby,<br>
<br>
According to one definition of a "clone" is that they all get the
same rating on a ratings ballot. STAR has ratings ballots that in
the final stage it interprets<br>
as ranking ballots. Voters can't make any ranking distinction
among candidates they score the same.<br>
<br>
This would be much less egregious if many many more scores were
available, say 0- 10000.<br>
<br>
The Clone-Loser thing enabling a clone of the score-winner that
pairwise loses to the score runner-up to displace the score
runner-up out of the final<br>
is relatively benign.<br>
<br>
If we define clones as candidates that are voted together on all
ballots with the minimum score distinction needed to make ranking
distinction among them,<br>
then the method fails Clone-Winner.<br>
<br>
Frankly I can't see any place for "proportional" anything in
single-winner method. The point of STAR is that it is very
simple so people can understand how it<br>
works and on-the-surface seems more-or-less benign and
"democratic", and it isn't IRV which is much much better.<br>
<br>
It isn't something that anyone serious looks at with a view to
"improving" it with some relatively complicated kludge.<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/08/2023 10:20 pm, Toby Pereira
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:731928526.2863001.1692622250219@mail.yahoo.com">
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Chris</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I thought one of your big
problems with STAR was the cloning thing. So the fact that
score ballots might jeopardise the clone run-off would be a
good thing wouldn't it?</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Your approval opposition
run-off is perhaps similar in outlook to what I suggested
previously about using a sequential proportional method to
elect two candidates to the run-off. Except that I would deal
with clones by allowing a single candidate (or their exact
clone depending on how you want to define it) to win both
seats in the run-off. In the case where single candidate has
so much support that they could win the first two seats in a
proportional election, it would be deemed that no run-off is
needed.</div>
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Toby</div>
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<div> On Monday, 21 August 2023 at 13:38:45 BST, C.Benham
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cbenham@adam.com.au"><cbenham@adam.com.au></a> wrote: </div>
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<p>Toby,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">Also a run-off between the most
two approved candidates still has STAR's clone
problem.</blockquote>
<br clear="none">
Some years ago I suggested that 2-round Top-Two Runoff
could be improved by using approval ballots in the first
round<br clear="none">
and then having a runoff between the most approved
candidate (the AW) and the candidate with the most
approval opposition<br clear="none">
to the AW (i.e. is most approved on ballots that don't
approve the AW).<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<blockquote type="cite">If the most approved candidate
is cloned, the run-off becomes irrelevant.
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
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</blockquote>
Spoken like someone who lives in parliamentist country.
"Clones" aren't necessarily identical. There could be
slight political differences<br clear="none">
or one may be less corrupt, or one could just have a
much better haircut.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Parties being having incentive to each field two
candidates (even if they are "clones") is maybe not too
bad. But STAR uses score ballots<br clear="none">
so there is a danger that there being two candidates
from the same party might cause voters to not give both
of them max score enough<br clear="none">
to stop both of them from making the final.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<blockquote type="cite">However, I just don't think that
STAR's failure here can reasonably be called a
monotonicity failure.</blockquote>
<p>I think it is very much like one and it's claiming of
bragging rights on that point over IRV is unfair and
misleading.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Chris<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
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