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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/05/2022 12:07, Richard Lung
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2d5c0e96-942d-8f3e-4ab6-b938fd33b01c@ukscientists.com">
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<p>Thank you, Steve,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I don't need to deny. Categories impose meaning, the voters may
not share, and an alternative 6 orders of choice are simply not
enough. That is problem enough.</p>
<p>As a rule, claims to 100% PR impose rather than elicit it. <br>
</p>
<p>I have said that FAB STV uses all (100%) of the preferential
information, for a complete dimension of choice. Since elections
must exclude, as well as elect, candidates, binomial STV also
has a rational exclusion count. And rationally quota counting
abstentions measures how much voters actually choose or reject
candidates.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Richard Lung.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/05/2022 06:56, steve bosworth
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DBAP195MB0922237AF0AB624792D240F9B6C59@DBAP195MB0922.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM">
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class="elementToProof"><font
style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><b>From:</b> steve bosworth <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:stevebosworth@hotmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><stevebosworth@hotmail.com></a><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri,
sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 4,
2022 11:55 PM<br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr" class="elementToProof"><font
style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><b>To:</b> Richard Lung <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:voting@ukscientists.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><voting@ukscientists.com></a><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri,
sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [EM]
Election-Methods Digest, Vol 213, Issue 44 (subjective
meaning of grades)</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="x_elementToProof"
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:14pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%"> <font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3">Richard,</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%"> <font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3"><br>
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%"> <font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3">Thank you for your reply.<br>
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%"> <font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3">1) Please correct me if I’m mistaken but I
don’t think you want to deny that the grades
Excellent, Very Good, Good, Acceptable, Poor, and
Reject are nominal, nor that they can easily be
translated into an ordinal scale of 6.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%"> <font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3">2) Nor, do you deny that the six numbers that
might be used by themselves would have much less
meaning than these verbal grades on their own to
express each citizen’s subjective evaluation of the
candidates. This is not to deny that such numbers
could acquire something like this clarity if and when
they are explicitly defined with regard to these
words, or otherwise verbally defined. Similarly, they
could acquire ever clearer meanings as a result of
being used for many years in a particular school or
university, like letter grades from A to F are often
used now.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%"> <font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3">3) It is in this subjective sense that the
use of verbal grades seem to be socially more
meaningful and informative than any pure numbers. Do
you agree?</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%"> <font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3">4) In the light of the green print on page 3
of the attachment previously sent, do you see any
problem with the rules by which evaluative
proportional representation (EPR) adds and subtracts
all the grades given by all citizens to all candidates
in order to determine which seven candidates are
elected to the city council?</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%"> <font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3">5) If your FAB STV method were used instead,
could it match EPR’s claim of such a council
proportionally representing 100% of all the votes
cast?</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%"> <font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3"><br>
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%"> </p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%"> <font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3">What do you think?</font></font><br>
</p>
<br>
</div>
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<div dir="ltr"><font class="x_elementToProof"
style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Richard Lung <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:voting@ukscientists.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><voting@ukscientists.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 4, 2022 11:31 AM<br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr" class="x_elementToProof"><font
style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><b>To:</b> steve bosworth <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:stevebosworth@hotmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><stevebosworth@hotmail.com></a><br>
</font></div>
<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class="x_elementToProof"><font
style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><b>Cc:</b> <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">election-methods@lists.electorama.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><election-methods@lists.electorama.com></a><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr" class="x_elementToProof"><font
style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [EM] Election-Methods
Digest, Vol 213, Issue 44</font> </div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="x_elementToProof"> </div>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div class="x_elementToProof">Steve,</div>
<div class="x_elementToProof"><br>
</div>
<div class="x_elementToProof">Thanks for reply. A basic
objection to graded classes is that it takes ordered
numbers to complete the transition from the classificatory
scale to the ordinal scale, in S S Stevens widely accepted
scales of measurement, in the sciences: nominal, ordinal,
interval, ratio scales. The vote should be an ordered
number vote. (Its classificatory scale is one person one
vote.) The count is an interval scale and a ratio scale
count.</div>
<div class="x_elementToProof"> The ordinal scale founds, in
the sciences, sufficiently advanced, an orderly transition
to the two most powerful scales. </div>
<div class="x_elementToProof">The stripped-down version of
FAB STV, is simple enough to enable a Binomial STV hand
count, and can elect single members, as mentioned, using a
rational exclusion count, as well as a rational election
count. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="x_elementToProof">Regards,</div>
<div class="x_elementToProof">Richard Lung.</div>
<div class="x_elementToProof"><br>
On 3 May 2022, at 9:30 pm, steve bosworth <<a
href="mailto:stevebosworth@hotmail.com"
data-auth="NotApplicable" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">stevebosworth@hotmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri,
sans-serif" color="#000000"><b
class="x_x_elementToProof">
<p class="x_elementToProof" style="margin-top: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px;margin-bottom:0in;
line-height:100%; background:transparent none
repeat scroll 0% 0%"> <font face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3">Re: <font color="#000000"> <font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:11pt" size="2">Re: [EM]
Election-Methods Digest, Vol 213, Issue
44</font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
<font face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3"><br>
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
<font face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3">Richard, </font>
</font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
<font face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3">Sorry, with
you initially starting out with President
Macron, I mistakenly responded to your
argument for FAB STV as if you were proposing
it as a single-winner method. However, your
most recent post copied below now makes it
clear that you instead see it as a superior
multi-winner method. Thank you.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
<font style="font-size:11pt" size="2"><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3">In this
light, I would like to ask you to compare
FAB STV with the multi-winner method my
co-authors and I call evaluative
proportional representation (EPR – </font></font><em><a
href="https://www.jpolrisk.com/legislatures-elected-by-evaluative-proportional-representation-epr-an-algorithm-v3/"
data-auth="NotApplicable"
moz-do-not-send="true"><font face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3"><span style="font-style:normal">https://www.jpolrisk.com/legislatures-elected-by-evaluative-proportional-representation-epr-an-algorithm-v3/</span></font></font></a></em><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3">). We see
EPR as an improved version of </font></font><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3">ordinary </font></font><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3">STV that
follows MJ by inviting citizens to rank
candidates more informatively </font></font><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3">instead </font></font><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3">by grading
them – grading their suitability for office
as either Excellent, Very Good, Good,
Acceptable, Poor, or Reject. We have also
updated </font></font><font face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3">the</font></font><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3">above 2020</font></font><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3"> article in
a </font></font><font face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3"><i>Paper</i></font></font><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3"> that I
would be happy to email to an</font></font><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3">y</font></font><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3"> EM reader
upon request (<a
href="mailto:stevebosworth@hotmail.com"
data-auth="NotApplicable"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">stevebosworth@hotmail.com</a>).</font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
<font style="font-size:11pt" size="2"><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font
style="font-size:12pt" size="3">I see EPR as
also fully satisfying your desire to</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><font style="font-size:12pt"
size="3"> include the judgments of the
whole electorate in the count to the
fullest extent possible to avoid *any …
minim</font></font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">ally democratic ...
binary choice* </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">as you put it</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">.</font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
<font style="font-size:11pt" size="2"><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">With regard to FAB
STV,</font></font><font color="#000000"><font
face="Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I am
happy to assume that </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">it</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif"> provides this
benefit much more than plurality and
ordinary STV does. </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">At the same time, </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">please</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif"> tell me how the
results of an FAB STV election at-large of a
seven-member city council </font> </font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">would</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif"> compare with </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">the following results
that an EPR election guarantees: every
citizens’ ballot equally adds to the voting
power (weighted vote) in the council of the
elected candidate each sees as likely to
represent their hopes and concerns most
accurately. This winner will have received
either this citizen’s highest grade,
remaining highest grade, or proxy vote.
Consequently, every citizen’s vote cast i</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">s</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif"> equally represented
in the council </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">quantitatively</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">. </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">Exactly how EPR offer</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">s </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">these democratic
benefits is described in the above mentioned
available </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif"><i>Paper</i></font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">.</font></font></font></p>
<p class="x_elementToProof" style="margin-top: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px;margin-bottom:0in;
line-height:100%; background:transparent none
repeat scroll 0% 0%"> <br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
<font style="font-size:11pt" size="2"><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">You (</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">Richard</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">)</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif"> freely warn reader</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">s</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif"> that most </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">of them may not</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif"> be able </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">fully </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">to understand the
complex steps by which an FAB STV election
would be counted. </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">In contrast, </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">my co-authors and I
believe that</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif"> anyone who can
count, add, and subtract whole </font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">numbers</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif"> will be able to unde</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">r</font></font><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">stand exactly how an
EPR </font></font><font color="#000000"><font
face="Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif">election
</font></font><font color="#000000"><font
face="Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif">is
counted.</font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
<font style="font-size:11pt" size="2"><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">I look forward to our
dialogues.</font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;margin-bottom:0in; line-height:100%;
background:transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
<font style="font-size:11pt" size="2"><font
color="#000000"><font face="Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif">Steve</font></font></font></p>
</b></font></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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