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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Hi Forest,</div><div><br></div><div>A few extra thoughts.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
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Le mercredi 15 septembre 2021, 23:09:57 UTC−5, Forest Simmons <forest.simmons21@gmail.com> a écrit :
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<div style="font-size: 13px;"><br></div><div><div id="ydp491f736yiv1718081996"><div class="ydp491f736yiv1718081996gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size: 13px;">>Once I became aware of this point of view, I saw the futility of Borda's assumption of honest voters, and the irrelevance of <br></div><div style="font-size: 13px;">>Saari's appeal to geometric symmetry in Borda's defense. Also it made it more obvious why the standard use of Cardinal </div><div style="font-size: 13px;">>Ratings/Score/Range/Grade ballots might just as well be replaced by simple Approval, since they all have the same optimal</div><div style="font-size: 13px;">>strategy ... only the naive voter would vote strictly between the extremes. <br></div><div style="font-size: 13px;">><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span>After this point of view soaked in ... the defeat strength debate started to make more sense. In fact, a paramount ranked</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span>voting strategy problem is the insincere "burial" of a second choice to give added support to a first choice. This problem is</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span>especially evident in pairwise methods like Borda and Condorcet. But this kind of attack against a sincere Condorcet candidate</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span>is easier to defend against when defeat strength is measured by winning votes.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span>Once this fact soaked in to my newbie psyche, I saw the wisdom of the Ossipoff camp with its impressive array of defense</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span>criteria based on winning votes.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">I think it was confusing and unhelpful that these criteria were usually explained in the context of burial.</font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">A criterion like SDSC (Strong Defensive Strategy Criterion) can really be viewed as a guarantee for</font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">certain voters that compromise will not be needed, much like FBC. Some methods satisfying SDSC don't</font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">even have burial, yet the property is not irrelevant. Implicit Approval on rank ballots is an easy example,</font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">or Bucklin.</font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">It certainly seems like I am the last member of the "Ossipoff camp." What I would say is that WV </font><span style="font-size: medium;">itself</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-size: medium;">doesn't matter. Only its practical implications matter. Minimize spoilers, minimize people regretting </span>that</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">they <span style="font-size: medium;">voted for their favorite candidate. People use such arguments to argue for Condorcet itself. Why</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-size: medium;">toss </span><span style="font-size: medium;">them out when choosing how to resolve a cycle?</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span>Eventually Mike O. went on to bigger and better things but a few years ago he made a brief, but passionate, return to the EM</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span>List when the Possibilities of Hope seemed to include a real possibility of election reform. As we weighed the merits of various</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span>methods it suddenly became apparent that we didn't have a Condorcet method that was immune to both burial abd "Chicken,"</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span>a ploy that had not concerned us much in the past but now loomed larger.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">For my part, the chicken dilemma was always a concern for me when </font><span style="font-size: medium;">designing methods. It has</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-size: medium;">weighed on my mind more heavily in recent years, though, I will say.</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">The problem has always been that there was not, and in my view still IS not, any real solution on the</font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">table. At least if limited to the UD methods. My best idea is that defection without burial just not be</font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">allowed, which raises other questions.</font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">For me, Mike's proposed CDC is a complete disaster. It is expensive, it involves mind-reading, it</font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">probably would achieve an outcome other than its intended one, it is barely defined, and its definition</font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">seems to make a sneaky concession to Condorcet methods that strikes me as unwarranted given</font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-size: medium;">the goal of the criterion. (Namely, one of the two factions is ALLOWED to defect! What??)</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-size: medium;">So, I was disappointed by this development.</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;">>Now here is a suggestion for a minimal departure from Universal Domain that makes both Burial and Chicken gambits too<br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span>risky to be practical with added benefit of potentially settling the wv versus margins debate once and for all!</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span>[But probably not before the debate about round or flat earth:-)]</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><span><span style="color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">></span></span>To each ranked preference ballot append a check box labeled "symmetric completion?"</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">I'd love to know on what basis the voter makes this decision. There is no need to request </font>that his</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">OWN ballot <span style="font-size: medium;">be symmetrically completed, so it must have something to do with his assessment</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-size: medium;">of the race.</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font size="3">But I suppose your idea is to introduce so much uncertainty that no one wants to use </font><span style="font-size: medium;">any insincere </span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-size: medium;">strategy. I'm not sure how well that works. It seems pretty clear that this method would have to have</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-size: medium;">more compromise incentive than WV, and uncertainty about the method's resolution would probably</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-size: medium;">drive further compromise incentive, as people seek to minimize risk.</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-size: medium;">Kevin</span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div></div></div></div></div>
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