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.quote { margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; border-left: 5px #ebebeb solid; padding-left: 0.3em; }--></style></head><body class="plain"><div>Robert Bristow-Johnson asks</div><div><br /><div class="quote"><div class="plain_line" style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);">How is it different? Other than multi-winner and the Hare threshold instead of Droop.</div><span style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);">
</span><div class="plain_line" style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);"> </div></div><div><br /></div></div><div>By "antithesis" I assume that Richard Lung meant majoritarian as opposed to proportional.</div><div><br /></div><div>IRV (single-winner STV) uses a Droop quota, not a Hare quota. In a single-winner election, a Droop quota [1/(S+1)] is a majority. A Hare quota [1/S] would mean that complete unanimity is required for any candidate to get elected.</div><div><br /></div><div>--Bob Richard</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>------ Original Message ------</div>
<div>From: "robert bristow-johnson" <<a href="mailto:rbj@audioimagination.com">rbj@audioimagination.com</a>></div>
<div>To: <a href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com">election-methods@lists.electorama.com</a></div>
<div>Sent: 4/19/2021 3:23:55 PM</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [EM] Mr Hare's system</div><div><br /></div>
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<div class="plain_line"> On 04/17/2021 9:40 AM Richard Lung <<a href="mailto:voting@ukscientists.com">voting@ukscientists.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div class="plain_line"> To EM members,</div>
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<div class="plain_line"> I edited writings of "John Stuart Mill: Proportional Representation is Personal Representation" especially on Mr Hare's system, as he called it, when an MP in Parliament. It is the antithesis of what is being dubbed, here, or wherever, as "Hare STV."</div>
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<div class="plain_line">How is it different? Other than multi-winner and the Hare threshold instead of Droop.</div>
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<div class="plain_line"> My claim was that System Of Logic was like a work of antiquity, such is the tremendous progress of natural science.</div>
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<div class="plain_line">The odd thing is that Condorcet is earlier than Hare. I dunno all the history but I'll been that Hare STV caught on because it wasn't so much effort to tabulate by hand.</div>
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<div class="plain_line">Condorcet is more principled. Condorcet is committed to majority rule and Hare-STV is not. (Hare-STV is Later No Harm and that's been flung at me before.) But Hare cannot commit to this simple ethic: If more voters mark their ballots preferring Candidate A over Candidate B than the number of voters marking their ballots to the contrary, then Candidate B is not elected.</div>
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<div class="plain_line">Condorcet is what delivers on the three big promises of "RCV" that FairVote promotes. And any Condorcet is virtually precinct summable. I consider that really important for the sake of transparency and doing better than FPTP.</div>
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<div class="plain_line">But any Condorcet method is more laborious if hand counted.</div>
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<div class="plain_line"> While, Representative Government is still ahead of its time. And this has much to do with Thomas Hare, independent inventor of the Andrae system, as it is called in Scandinavian countries -- but rarely used there. An exception was the Iceland Citizens Convention. And they called in a Scotsman, (Dr James Gilmour) for the STV count.</div>
<div class="plain_line"> The great pioneer reformers, Clarence Hoag and George Hallett promoted At-large STV/PR -- the real "Hare STV" -- in many American cities. Cambridge, home of MIT, was the only city, where the science, in political science, out-weighed the political.</div>
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<div class="plain_line">Richard, I'm pretty sure that the city council elections in Cambridge Massachusetts are the same Hare STV that FairVote promotes. Unless these are multiwinner election (I'm not sure about that). Burlington used exactly the same software to run the election in 2009 and it even has the words "Cambridge" in some of the output files. I can send them if you want. Below at bottom I just pasted the text, FYI.</div>
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<div class="plain_line">--</div>
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<div class="plain_line">r b-j <a href="mailto:rbj@audioimagination.com">rbj@audioimagination.com</a></div>
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<div class="plain_line">"Imagination is more important than knowledge."</div>
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<div class="plain_line"># Final piles of ballots, sorted by candidate.</div>
<div class="plain_line"># Created Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:15 PM</div>
<div class="plain_line"> </div>
<div class="plain_line"> </div>
<div class="plain_line"># This file can be used for auditing, or for filling mid-term vacancies</div>
<div class="plain_line"># in Cambridge. To fill a vacancy, edit the line below that says,</div>
<div class="plain_line"># "# CAMBRIDGE-VACANCY-RECOUNT candidate-code". Remove the '#', so</div>
<div class="plain_line"># that ChoicePlusr will process the line, and replace "candidate-code"</div>
<div class="plain_line"># with the candidate code for whom the ballots are to be recounted.</div>
<div class="plain_line"># Be sure to rename the file when saving it! E.g. to "<Your Election</div>
<div class="plain_line"># Title> Recount Input.txt".</div>
<div class="plain_line"> </div>
<div class="plain_line"> </div>
<div class="plain_line"> </div>
<div class="plain_line"># The following lines are the configuration lines necessary for a Cambridge</div>
<div class="plain_line"># style recount.</div>
<div class="plain_line">.COMPLY-WITH CAMBRIDGE</div>
<div class="plain_line">.ELECT 1</div>
<div class="plain_line"> </div>
<div class="plain_line"> </div>
<div class="plain_line"># The Candidates:</div>
<div class="plain_line">.CANDIDATE C01, "Bob Kiss"</div>
<div class="plain_line">.CANDIDATE C02, "Andy Montroll"</div>
<div class="plain_line">.CANDIDATE C03, "James Simpson"</div>
<div class="plain_line">.CANDIDATE C04, "Dan Smith"</div>
<div class="plain_line">.CANDIDATE C05, "Kurt Wright"</div>
<div class="plain_line">.CANDIDATE C06, "Write-in"</div>
<div class="plain_line"> </div>
<div class="plain_line"># The following lines exclude those candidates who</div>
<div class="plain_line"># were elected or excluded in the original election</div>
<div class="plain_line"># from participating in a future runoff.</div>
<div class="plain_line">.EXCLUDE-CANDIDATE C01</div>
<div class="plain_line"> </div>
<div class="plain_line"># ******* The following line must be edited for a Cambridge recount! *******</div>
<div class="plain_line">#.CAMBRIDGE-VACANCY-RECOUNT candidate-code</div>
<div class="plain_line"> </div>
<div class="plain_line"># Suppose that Joe Smith resigned mid-term, and Karen Jones was elected</div>
<div class="plain_line"># to fill that seat. But then Karen Jones also resigned! You can rerun</div>
<div class="plain_line"># the same recount, but specify that Karen Jones is excluded.</div>
<div class="plain_line">#.EXCLUDE-CANDIDATE candidate-code</div>
<div class="plain_line"> </div>
<div class="plain_line"># This specifies the format for the ballots</div>
<div class="plain_line">.BALLOT-FORMAT-FIELDS BALLOT-ID-ALPHA BALLOT-VALUE RANKINGS-ALPHA</div>
<div class="plain_line"> </div>
<div class="plain_line"># Ballots for candidate C01 ("Bob Kiss")</div>
<div class="plain_line"># Candidate has 4,313 ballots in his/her pile.</div>
<div class="plain_line"># Vote total: 4313.</div>
<div class="plain_line">.FINAL-PILE C01</div>
<div class="plain_line">000001-00-0001, 1) C01,C02</div>
<div class="plain_line">000001-00-0006, 1) C01,C02</div>
<div class="plain_line">000001-00-0008, 1) C01,C04,C02,C05,C03</div>
<div class="plain_line">...</div>
<div class="plain_line"> ...</div>
<div class="plain_line"> ...</div>
<div class="plain_line">----</div>
<div class="plain_line">Election-Methods mailing list - see <a href="https://electorama.com/em">https://electorama.com/em</a> for list info</div>
<div class="plain_line"> </div>
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