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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28/05/2019 8:06 am, steve bosworth
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:AM6PR06MB47244639667CD3CF51804145B61D0@AM6PR06MB4724.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com">
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<span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;color:#323130">Hi Cris,</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
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<span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;color:#323130">Thank you for
commenting on my post asking for any criticisms of MJ.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>I will respond inline to your two relevant posts
and I look forward to the next stage of our dialogue.</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;color:#323130"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
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normal">
<span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;color:#323130">Steve Bosworth</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal">
<span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;color:#323130"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
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normal">
<span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;color:#323130">Message: 3</span><span
style="font-family:""",serif;color:#323130"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;color:#323130">Date: Wed, 22 May 2019
01:24:41 +0930</span><span
style="font-family:""",serif;
color:#323130"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;color:#323130">From: Chris Benham
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au"><cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au></a></span><span
style="font-family:
""",serif;color:#323130"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;color:#323130">To:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com">election-methods@lists.electorama.com</a></span><span
style="font-family:""",serif;
color:#323130"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;color:#323130">Subject: Re: [EM]
Burlington and Condorce methods</span><span
style="font-family:""",serif;
color:#323130"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;color:#323130">Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:5e95b93f-398e-c151-a448-6f2632c7ca76@yahoo.com.au"><5e95b93f-398e-c151-a448-6f2632c7ca76@yahoo.com.au></a></span><span
style="font-family:""",serif;color:#323130"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;color:#323130">Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN" lang="EN"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN">C: An example I recently came up with to
critique another Bucklin-like proposal:<br>
<br>
46: A<br>
03: A>B<br>
25: C>B<br>
23: D>B<br>
<br>
97 ballots (majority threshold = 48)<br>
<br>
(If you want MJ-style multi-slot ratings ballots, assume
that all the voters have given their favourite the highest
possible rating and those that rated B above bottom all
gave B the same middle rating and that truncating here
signifies giving the<br>
lowest possible rating).<br>
<br>
MJ and Bucklin both rightly elect A. IBIFA and IRV
also elect A. A is the Condorcet winner: A>B 49-48,
A>C 49-25, A>D 49-23,<br>
A>E 49>0.<br>
<br>
A is the most Top-rated candidate: A49, C25, D23, B0,
E0.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN">S:<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>No, Balinski’s MJ not simply counts all the number
of “Top-rated” grades give to all the candidates, but all
the grade above each of their median-grade, plus the
median-grade.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"><br>
C:<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>So suppose the
votes are counted and it is announced that A has won, but
just before this is officially and irrevocably confirmed<br>
someone pipes up, "Hang on a minute, we found a few more
ballots!" (Maybe they are late-arriving postal votes that
had been<br>
thought lost.) <br>
<br>
These 3 new ballots are inspected and found that all they
do is give the highest possible rating to E, a candidate
with no support on any of the other 97 ballots. What do we
do now? Laugh and carry on with confirming A as still the
winner? No.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"><br>
S: No, Balinski’s MJ proceeds to discover any new
median-grades of any of all the candidates running,
including all of the candidates not mentioned by these
additional ballots, i.e. all the candidates at the bottom
(i.e. all the candidates counted as “Reject” by these
additional ballots).<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>Please consider my translation below of your above
example election using the terminology and symbols used by
Balinski.<br>
<br>
46: A<br>
03: A>B<br>
25: C>B<br>
23: D>B<br>
03: E<br>
<br>
100 ballots (majority threshold = 51)<br>
<br>
Now MJ and Bucklin and any other Median Ratings method
elects B. All methods that I find acceptable elect A both
with and without those 3E ballots.
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white"><br>
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"><span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN">
<blockquote type="cite"><span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN">S:<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>And by doing so you count the value of
each of these 3 votes as 0 contained in these 3
additional ballots, needless waste each,
needlessly elect a candidate rejected by an
absolute majority of all the voters rather than
the candidate who is at least Accepted by an
absolute majority.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>You do not fulfill MJ’s promise to allow
each citizen to help to determine the
median-grade of all the candidates by explicitly
expressing their judgment of the suitability for
office of each of all the candidates, by grading
at least one candidate as at least Acceptable.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>You deny the equality of each voting
citizen.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>Would your currently preferred method
(IBIBA) also waste votes?<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>If so, how could this be justified?</span></span></blockquote>
</span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"><br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"><span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"><span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>And by doing so you count the value
of each of these 3 votes as 0 contained in
these 3 additional ballots, needless waste
each, needlessly elect a candidate rejected
by an absolute majority of all the voters
rather than the candidate who is at least
Accepted by an absolute majority.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<br>
C: To "waste" a vote is something done to deny the person
who voted some power on the result in the direction of the
voter's expressed preference. So in my example<br>
the three votes weren't "wasted". It wasn't possible for
them to help elect E, and according to their ballots they
don't care which of the candidates they "reject" is
elected.<br>
To say that their votes were in some meaningful way
"wasted" is nonsense.<br>
</span></p>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:AM6PR06MB47244639667CD3CF51804145B61D0@AM6PR06MB4724.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;"><span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN">Why should I care more about your standard
that we never elect a candidate who has (as you and
Balinski interpret the ballots) been "rejected" by "an
absolute majority<br>
of all the voters" more than I care about meeting the
Condorcet criterion? Because as the example demonstrates
the two are not compatible.<br>
<br>
Neither MJ or IBIFA can meet the Condorcet criterion
because they are FBC methods, but when MJ and IBIFA give
different winners the IBIFA winner will always pairwise<br>
beat the MJ winner.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"><span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"><span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN">You do not fulfill MJ’s
promise to allow each citizen to help to
determine the median-grade of all the
candidates by explicitly expressing their
judgment of the suitability for office of
each of all the candidates, by grading at
least one candidate as at least Acceptable.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<br>
C: That's right. Why should I? What makes you think that
all (or even some or any) of the citizens want to "help
determine the median-grade of all the candidates"?<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"><span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"><span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>You deny the equality of each voting
citizen.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<br>
By not "allowing" 3 voters to change the result from one
candidate they don't care about to another candidate they
don't care about, in order to elect a Condorcet <br>
winner? Recall A>B 49-48, A>C 49-25, A>D
49-23, A>E 49-3.<br>
<br>
You claim to want to "</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"><span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";
mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#323130;
mso-ansi-language:EN" lang="EN">offer as few
incentives and possibilities for voting tactical."
Tell that to the three A>B voters, who could have
made A win by just voting A <br>
like A's other 46 supporters. <br>
<br>
MJ (like all Median Ratings methods) has a
significantly stronger truncation incentive than does
IBIFA and this is an example of that.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#323130">S:<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>Balinski’s recommended “grades” for
voters to award to as many of the candidates as
they wish with regard to their suitability for
office:<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>Excellent (e) [ideal], Very Good (vg),
Good (g), Acceptable (a), Poor, or Reject (r)
[entirely unsuitable].</span></span></blockquote>
<br>
I find the names Balinski gives to the grades (or
ratings) on the ballot annoying and bullying. I would
want to give my favourite A the highest possible<br>
grade even if I thought A was mediocre or the least
bad of a bad bunch, and I would not enjoy having to
lyingly declare that really A is "excellent" and<br>
that some compromise even worse candidate I gave a
lower grade to is actually "very good" or "good".<br>
</span></span></span></p>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:AM6PR06MB47244639667CD3CF51804145B61D0@AM6PR06MB4724.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;"><span>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN">[….]<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN">Chris Benham<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal;background:white">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Segoe
UI",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-ansi-language:
EN" lang="EN"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 107%; font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif; font-size:
11pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal">
<span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";color:#C00000;mso-ansi-language:EN" lang="EN"><br>
</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#323130"></span></p>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
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