<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
> On 02/09/2017 08:26 AM, robert bristow-johnson wrote:<br>
> In a referendum, why does the status-quo option have to be a
"special option"? why can't it be just one of the<br>
> several options being chosen from?<br>
<br>
The recent Brexit and Trump elections reveal that voters often wake
up to discover that they voted in a way that opposed what they
really prefer. In other words, it takes time to clearly understand
each choice, and the implications of each choice.<br>
<br>
Now combine that confusion with the fact that many people do not
know how to vote beyond saying "Here is the choice I want, otherwise
don't make any change, and I oppose all other choices."<br>
<br>
And toss in media-focus issues, where two options is about all that
some news sources want to cover -- because that's what attracts the
most readers/viewers.<br>
<br>
In my book "Ending The Hidden Unfairness In U.S. Elections" I
explain that a no-change option must always be handled as a separate
voting step, after having identified the most popular of the
"change" choices.<br>
<br>
And surely no one is going to claim that approval voting can be used
when a no-change option is one of several options, right?<br>
<br>
Richard Fobes<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/9/2017 1:56 AM, robert
bristow-johnson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:ef2005b304490a21fb1fde3dabd13d27.squirrel@webmail04.register.com"
type="cite"><br>
<br>
---------------------------- Original Message
----------------------------<br>
Subject: Re: [EM] Am I still subscribed?<br>
From: "Kristofer Munsterhjelm" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:km_elmet@t-online.de"><km_elmet@t-online.de></a><br>
Date: Thu, February 9, 2017 4:41 am<br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rbj@audioimagination.com">rbj@audioimagination.com</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com">"election-methods@lists.electorama.com"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com"><election-methods@lists.electorama.com></a><br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
> On 02/09/2017 08:26 AM, robert bristow-johnson wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ---------------------------- Original Message
----------------------------<br>
>> Subject: Re: [EM] Am I still subscribed?<br>
>> From: "VoteFair" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:electionmethods@votefair.org"><electionmethods@votefair.org></a><br>
>> Date: Thu, February 9, 2017 1:39 am<br>
>> To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com">"election-methods@lists.electorama.com"</a><br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com"><election-methods@lists.electorama.com></a><br>
>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>>> On 2/8/2017 1:59 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>> It seems simple enough to just do a New Zealand
ballot:<br>
>>>> 1. Do you want to change the voting method?
(yes/no)<br>
>>>> 2. If yes wins, what do you want to replace it
with? (use either<br>
>>>> Plurality or Approval for the meta-election
method here)<br>
>>><br>
>>> Nope. In order to make the decision fair, the final
vote needs to be<br>
>>> yes/no. That means the method needs to be picked
first.<br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>> well, no. this is just like saying "no" is one of the
run-off finalists<br>
>> and the other finalist must be picked first.<br>
>><br>
>> but if "no" is just one option among the other voting
methods to choose<br>
>> from, then this compound decision resolves exactly the
same as ranking<br>
>> all of the options (including the "no" option) and, *if*
there is a<br>
>> Condorcet winner, choosing the Condorcet winner. (if
there isn't an<br>
>> Condorcet winner, that means the voting body prefer
*something* over<br>
>> "no". but if there is a Condorcet winner among all
options, that<br>
>> resolves the same as everyone choosing the "yes" option
first (using<br>
>> Condorcet) and then stacking that up against "no" and see
which option<br>
>> the voters decide.<br>
>><br>
>> this is why i like Condorcet so much (and why i worry
less about the<br>
>> cycle). Condorcet makes all of the options, including the
status quo,<br>
>> all positioned on a flat playing field.<br>
><br>
> A Condorcet-in-spirit referendum system could go like this:<br>
><br>
> - Order the options randomly.<br>
> - Ask a yes/no about whether the voters prefer the first
option to the<br>
> second.<br>
> - Ask a yes/no about whether the voters prefer the winner of
the<br>
> previous round to the third option.<br>
> - ... and so on up to the last option, asking a yes/no about
the winner<br>
> of the last round compared to the kth option.<br>
in presentation, this is not flat. the kth option is always in
the "final round".<br>
now, up to here, we're describing what happens on an individual
ballot...<br>
<br>
> Whichever option wins is the overall winner, and it must be
the CW if it<br>
> exists (and voters never change their minds between the
rounds). The<br>
> cycle tiebreaker is in effect to pick a random option in the
Smith set.<br>
... but now we have tabulated voting results. how did we get
here?<br>
><br>
> But it's really cumbersome.<br>
i don't see it as equivalently flat as a simple ranked ballot
decided by a Condocet-compliant method (and a CW existing).<br>
in a referendum, why does the status-quo option have to be a
"special option"? why can't it be just one of the
several options being chosen from?<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
r b-j <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rbj@audioimagination.com">rbj@audioimagination.com</a><br>
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
----
Election-Methods mailing list - see <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://electorama.com/em">http://electorama.com/em</a> for
list info
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>