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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>What “level of proportionality” do you want? Most PR systems (party list) that could deliver very high levels of proportionality (e.g. 1 in 325) have an artificial threshold to keep out the “smaller” parties. At least with STV-PR that <i>de facto</i> threshold is defined by the trade-off decided between the proportionality of representation and the localness of representation. The weight attached to these competing features differs markedly among political cultures.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>In the UK the ballot papers for our STV-PR elections are neither very large nor unwieldy, but then we don’t have party groupings or insist that parties nominate certain minimum numbers of candidates to qualify for special positions on the ballot papers and certainly no “above the line” voting.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>The law of diminishing returns applies to voter representation - see first graphic. In our experience STV-PR delivers better representation than these theoretical returns - even from wards electing only 3 members or 4 members - see second attachment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>As to PR overall, few in the UK would have problems with the proportionality delivered in the Northern Ireland Assembly elections where all the electoral districts return 6 members - see third attachment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>James<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Toby Pereira [mailto:tdp201b@yahoo.co.uk] <br><b>Sent:</b> 03 January 2017 16:53<br><b>To:</b> jgilmour@globalnet.co.uk; 'Erik Moeller' <eloquence@gmail.com><br><b>Cc:</b> election-methods@lists.electorama.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [EM] The Global Fight For Electoral Justice: A Primer<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5528"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'>The main problem with STV is that it limits the region size and therefore the level of proportionality you can achieve because ballot papers can get very large and unwieldy very quickly.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5535"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5536"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'>Another alternative is mixed member (MMP) but without lists. You would have individual constituencies as well as wider regions.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5651"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5672"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'>Something like what I described here - </span><a href="https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/electionscience/aP7ybKMb1zs/giaYAh6wAwAJ" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5676"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue"'>https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/electionscience/aP7ybKMb1zs/giaYAh6wAwAJ</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'> - which would work with score or approval voting. I also did a video - </span><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjeBEBZjm9Y" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5750"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue"'>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjeBEBZjm9Y</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'> - but that's a bit long. I should probably do a short one.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5793"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5794"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'>Toby<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5756"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5709"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5537"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5408"><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5406"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5405"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5404"><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5802"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> James Gilmour <</span><a href="mailto:jgilmour@globalnet.co.uk"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>jgilmour@globalnet.co.uk</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>><br><b>To:</b> 'Erik Moeller' <</span><a href="mailto:eloquence@gmail.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>eloquence@gmail.com</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>> <br><b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>election-methods@lists.electorama.com</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 3 January 2017, 12:48<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [EM] The Global Fight For Electoral Justice: A Primer</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1483447119653_5464"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'><br>And if you are going to have effective ranking WITHIN each party list, why not just use STV-PR?<br><br>Regards<br>James<br><br><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: Erik Moeller [mailto:</span><a href="mailto:eloquence@gmail.com"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue"'>eloquence@gmail.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'>]<br>> Sent: 03 January 2017 04:59<br>> To: </span><a href="mailto:jgilmour@globalnet.co.uk"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue"'>jgilmour@globalnet.co.uk</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'><br>> Cc: ElectionMethods <</span><a href="mailto:electionmethods@votefair.org"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue"'>electionmethods@votefair.org</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'>>; </span><a href="mailto:election-methods@lists.electorama.com"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue"'>election-methods@lists.electorama.com</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'><br>> Subject: Re: [EM] The Global Fight For Electoral Justice: A Primer<br>> <br>> On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 7:52 AM, James Gilmour <</span><a href="mailto:jgilmour@globalnet.co.uk"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue"'>jgilmour@globalnet.co.uk</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'>> wrote:<br>> <br>> > I have always understood that the British civil servants who<br>> > administered the British Occupied Zone after WWII had a large hand in<br>> > devising AMS, by combining the British FPTP system (with single-member<br>> > electoral districts) with the old Weimar system, in the<br>> > (mistaken) belief that this would introduce a significant element of<br>> > personal choice to what had been an impersonal closed-list party-list voting system.<br>> <br>> It's not completely mistaken as the directly elected candidates sometimes do enjoy high local popularity that propels them to unusual<br>> levels of success beyond the support for their party. But I think the single-vote variant is interesting in this regard, because the<br>> combination of party/person and the use of popular support to derive party lists means that individuals benefit from campaigning<br>> locally (they're more likely to get a list seat if they score well).<br>> <br>> Variants of this system that don't require full ranking but still increase intra-party competition are likely possible. For example, if voters<br>> could strike through the name of a person they absolutely don't want while still voting for the party, this would be a simple tool to<br>> further influence the list ranking.<br>> <br>> > Originally electors had only one vote; the two-vote ballot paper was<br>> > introduced for the Federal Bundestag elections in 1953.<br>> ><br>> > The predominance of closed-list party-list voting systems in<br>> > continental Europe<br>> <br>> Open lists are also widespread in continental Europe, as this map from Fairvote shows:<br>> </span><a href="http://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/fairvote.geography-class/page.html#3/46.80/751.64" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue"'>http://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/fairvote.geography-class/page.html#3/46.80/751.64</span></a><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black'><br>> <br>> Cheers,<br>> Erik<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div>
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