<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif;font-size:13px"><div><span></span></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5144">With the 300/100 dollar example, the gamble is the same as saying that two people would prefer to take a gamble so that one of them wins $301 and the other wins nothing than they both take $100 each guaranteed. Not all people would hold the same utility values, so that particular example wouldn't work for everyone, of course.</div><div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5171"><br></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5172">But in any case, a maxmin approach doesn't work because most people would take some sort of gamble like the above. Almost all pairs of people would take a coin flip gamble for $1000 rather than a guaranteed $1. Maxmin suggests that the $1 for each is better.</div><div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5145"><br></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5146" dir="ltr">With the yacht example, it could be that even a whole yacht isn't sufficient to equal a dollar in the poor person's eyes. But there are real life examples a little bit like this anyway. Would you ban fairground rides? Each person who has a go on one has only a small increase in their overall lifetime utility for having a ride on one of these, and a very small proportion of people get injured or even killed on them. It would be very hard to justify their existence using any sort of maxmin approach, and most people seem to be taking more of an average utility approach when engaging in some sort of activity that comes with a small risk of injury.<br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_4971" style="display: block;"> <blockquote id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_4970" style="padding-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_4969" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 13px;"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_4968" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5065" dir="ltr"> <font id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5064" face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5066"> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Michael Ossipoff <email9648742@gmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Toby Pereira <tdp201b@yahoo.co.uk>; "election-methods@electorama.com" <election-methods@electorama.com> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, 26 October 2016, 19:47<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [EM] SARA voting: easier-to-describe MAS<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_4967"><br><div id="yiv3591216797"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_4966"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_4965" dir="ltr"><div class="yiv3591216797gmail_extra" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_4964"><br clear="none"><div class="yiv3591216797gmail_quote" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_4963">On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Toby Pereira <span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_4962" dir="ltr"><<a id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_4961" href="mailto:tdp201b@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:tdp201b@yahoo.co.uk">tdp201b@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none"><blockquote class="yiv3591216797gmail_quote" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5007" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5006"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5005" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7129"><span id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7128">Also, a given amount of money is worth more in utility to a poor person than a rich person, so Michael's analogy of taking a dollar from a homeless person and giving it to a billionaire doesn't work. I know he gave a previous example where the billionaire gets a yacht or something and it does get more debatable at that point.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5008"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5009">Yes, I added that chance for that reason.<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"></div><blockquote class="yiv3591216797gmail_quote" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5063" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5062"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5061" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7255"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7257"><span id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7256">But I don't think the maximum minimum utility is necessarily even the best principle to use anyway. There are good arguments for maximising average utility. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5067"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5068">I haven't heard one. The argument below doesn't successfully show that.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"></div><blockquote class="yiv3591216797gmail_quote" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5071" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5070"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5069" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7257"><span id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7256">If I am given 100 dollars, then there is an amount of money that I would gamble that for on a coin flip, or where I'd call them equivalent. Let's say I decide that I'd gamble it for anything more than 300 dollars. That's the same as me saying that for me the difference in utility between 0 and 100 dollars is the same as the difference between 100 and 300 dollars. It is also equivalent to saying that if there are two people with the same utility ratings as me, it's as good to give one of them 300 dollars as it is to give each of them 100 dollars. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5029"><br clear="none"></div><div>It results in the same total utility. To say that that means its just as good, circularly assumes what you seek to show.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5030">You haven't shown that giving one person $300 and giving the other person nothing is as good as giving $100 to each. ...you've shown only that the total utility is the same.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div>You can't justify taking a dollar away from a homeless man who badly needs it, and giving another yacht to a billionaire.<br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5039"><br clear="none"> </div><blockquote class="yiv3591216797gmail_quote" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5038" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5037"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5036" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7257"><span id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7256"><br clear="none"></span></div><div id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7362"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7363"><span id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7364">I have the same intuitions about rich/poor people, but you need a logically consistent framework as well as intuitions.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5035"><br clear="none"></div><div>I don't deny that logic can't apply to some ethical/moral questions. But logic has nothing to do with the basis of ethical and moral choices. <br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5040">The basis of ethics & morality is intuitive & subjective, not logical.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5041">Michael Ossipoff<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5055">(I have no way to delete the text below)<div class="yiv3591216797yqt1871895392" id="yiv3591216797yqtfd53257"><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"></div></div><div class="yiv3591216797yqt1871895392" id="yiv3591216797yqtfd65472"><blockquote class="yiv3591216797gmail_quote" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5044" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5043"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477559746339_5042" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013qtdSeparateBR" id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7115"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yahoo_quoted" id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7134" style="display: block;"> <blockquote id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7133" style="padding-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;"> <div id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7132" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 13px;"> <div id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7131" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7130" dir="ltr"> <font id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7135" face="Arial" size="2"> </font><hr size="1" id="yiv3591216797m_5631204770480424013yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477472513222_7167"> </div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div></div></body></html>