<p dir="ltr">Chris--</p>
<p dir="ltr">Sure, the only reason to use MAM instead of MinMax is for if there's a larger Smith set.</p>
<p dir="ltr">We could propose MinMax, and assure people that the situations where it fails MAM's criteria will never happen.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I guess "Don't worry, it will never happen" is what FairVote assured people in Burlington.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Is that a good idea?</p>
<p dir="ltr">And so, it's on the assumption that there could be a Smith set with more than 3 candidates, that we speak of how MAM & Schulze differ.</p>
<p dir="ltr">So, if it will be rare for them to differ, does that mean that we should propose the more complicatedly-worded, elaborately- worded one?</p>
<p dir="ltr">...the less obviously, naturally and clearly motivated & justified one?</p>
<p dir="ltr">MAM's brief definition just says:</p>
<p dir="ltr">A defeat is affirmed if it isn't the weakest defeat in a cycle whose other defeats are affirmed.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Though CIVS never has a top cycle for 1st finisher, it often has them farther down in the finishing order.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I've only looked at the Smith-set of one of those: the poll regarding laws for bigamy.</p>
<p dir="ltr">It's Smith-set was approaching around 10 when I stopped counting. ( The cycle was far down in the finishing order).</p>
<p dir="ltr">Maybe short rankings caused that result, or maybe the 1-D spectrum assumption doesn't hold for low finishing positions.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Michael Ossipoff<br>
</p>
<div class="gmail_quot<blockquote class=" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="m_7412662953347104770moz-cite-prefix">Marcus,<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Barry Wright writes: "[In the 3-candidate
case] Least Worst
<br>
Defeat and Schulze [are] disagreeing on only three elections
<br>
per thousand."</blockquote>
<br>
In the 3-candidate case, how can "Least Worst Defeat" (aka MinMax
?) and Schulze <b>ever</b> disagree?<br>
<br>
As I understand it, Schulze and MAM and River and Smith//MinMax
can only ever give different winners when<br>
there are more than three candidates in the Smith set.<br>
<br>
That chance of that happening in a real public election is close
enough to zero, so therefore "MAM versus Shulze" <br>
strikes me as pointless.<br>
<br>
And if it didn't I wouldn't find the argument that one's winner
pairwise beats the other's a small proportion of times more<br>
than vice versa very compelling.<br>
<br>
Chris Benham<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/6/2016 4:43 AM, Markus Schulze wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Hallo,
<br>
<br>
on the other side, the simulations have also shown that
<br>
the worst pairwise defeat of the Schulze winner is usually
<br>
weaker than the worst defeat of the MAM winner.
<br>
<br>
Norman Petry writes: "Schulze and Smith//PC are in agreement
<br>
on the choice of winner over 90% of the time, regardless of
<br>
the size of the Smith set, whereas Tideman's method diverges
<br>
in its choices as the size of the Smith set increases."
<br>
<br>
<a class="m_7412662953347104770moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2000-November/069868.html" target="_blank">http://lists.electorama.com/<wbr>pipermail/election-methods-<wbr>electorama.com/2000-November/<wbr>069868.html</a>
<br>
<a class="m_7412662953347104770moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.mail-archive.com/election-methods-list@eskimo.com/msg02310.html" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/<wbr>election-methods-list@eskimo.<wbr>com/msg02310.html</a>
<br>
<a class="m_7412662953347104770moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/election-methods-list/conversations/topics/5948" target="_blank">https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/<wbr>groups/election-methods-list/<wbr>conversations/topics/5948</a>
<br>
<br>
Jobst Heitzig writes: "Note that Beatpath and Plain Condorcet
<br>
are unanimous in all these examples!"
<br>
<br>
<a class="m_7412662953347104770moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2004-May/078166.html" target="_blank">http://lists.electorama.com/<wbr>pipermail/election-methods-<wbr>electorama.com/2004-May/<wbr>078166.html</a>
<br>
<a class="m_7412662953347104770moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/election-methods-list/conversations/messages/14251" target="_blank">https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/<wbr>groups/election-methods-list/<wbr>conversations/messages/14251</a>
<br>
<br>
Barry Wright writes: "[In the 3-candidate case] Least Worst
<br>
Defeat and Schulze [are] disagreeing on only three elections
<br>
per thousand." "We do notice that Least Worst Defeat and
<br>
Schulze continue to show a very coherent response, agreeing
<br>
in nearly ninety-nine percent of all elections through
<br>
seven candidates."
<br>
<br>
<a class="m_7412662953347104770moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://services.math.duke.edu/~bray/Courses/49s-GTD/Senior%20Theses/Barry%20Wright/Barry%20Wright's%20Thesis.pdf" target="_blank">https://services.math.duke.<wbr>edu/~bray/Courses/49s-GTD/<wbr>Senior%20Theses/Barry%<wbr>20Wright/Barry%20Wright's%<wbr>20Thesis.pdf</a>
<br>
<br>
Markus Schulze
<br>
<br>
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