<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"><!-- P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} --></style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size:14pt;color:#000000;background-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p><font face="Times New Roman"></font></p>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">Re: [EM] (6) MJ -- The easiest method to 'tolerate'</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<div style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">
<hr width="98%" size="2" align="left">
</font></span></div>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<b><span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">From:</font></span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">
Kevin Venzke <stepjak@yahoo.fr><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 13, 2016 4:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> steve bosworth; election-methods@lists.electorama.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [EM] (5) MJ -- The easiest method to 'tolerate'</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri"> </font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">> ________________________________
<br>
> De : steve bosworth <stevebosworth@hotmail.com> <br>
> À : "stepjak@yahoo.fr" <stepjak@yahoo.fr>; "election-methods@lists.electorama.com" <election-methods@lists.electorama.com>
<br>
> Envoyé le : Dimanche 11 septembre 2016 18h44 <br>
> Objet : Re: [EM] (5) MJ -- The easiest method to 'tolerate' <br>
> <br>
Hi Kevin and everyone,</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>It now seems that the main question between us is whether MJ is, or is not, better than your preferred method at providing each citizen with the two voting incentives we both seem to desire:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>1) to express their evaluations of all the candidates honestly (sincerely) on the ballot, and 2) to vote in a way that maximize the chances of their preferred candidate winning?</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">Again, I see MJ as maximally encouraging each voter to evaluate
(‘grade’) all the candidates sincerely while, at the same, allowing each citizen to vote strategically (manipulatively) when they see this as the most likely way to assist their most preferred candidate to win or their most opposed candidate to lose.
</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">You seem to see MJ as more likely than the method you prefer
to lead less savvy voters effectively to support candidates they would not like if they knew more about how to vote strategically.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>If this is so, please explain your reasons.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>To explain this, perhaps it would be most helpful to me if you would compare the different strategies you would adopt when using both an MJ ballot and the ballot of the method you most prefer with regard to the following presidential election: 15 candidates,
5 of whom you would honestly value above Poor (e.g. 1 Excellent, 2 Very Good, 1 Good, and 1 Acceptable.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Perhaps your strategies would change depending on the different degrees of knowledge you might have about how all the other citizens are likely to vote.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>When using MJ, would your strategy be other than simply to grade each candidate honestly?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>If not, what would it be and why?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>
In the same conditions, what would your strategies be while using your preferred method instead?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>What extra ‘mileage’ do see your method providing?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Which method is more ‘discerning’ with regard to the values held both by voters and candidates?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Which method is more likely to elect the candidate who is most fit for the office? What are the different ‘incentives’ offered by the 2 methods?</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">If you would do this, it would help me be clearer about
the reasoning behind your position.</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri"> </font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">As you explained in your last post, perhaps your preferred
method is MAM, as enhanced by the addition of Cardinal-Weighted-Pairweis (CWP, as proposed by James Armytage-Green in 2004).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>I can see that CWP could help make the counting of the different intensities of preferences by MAM more exact.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Unfortunately, the addition of CWP might make MAM even more complicated for most voters to understand.</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">[….]</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">>> S: [….] 1. Do you agree that the ‘object of … an election
is to select … some candidate who shall, in the opinion of a majority of the electors, be most fit for the post….(B&L, Majority Judgment, p.209)? [….]
</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><br>
> K: I would answer close to "yes" but I probably would not word it exactly as page 209 does.
</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><br>
<font face="Calibri">> S: Please try to put it in your own words. <br>
[….]</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">> S: Do you agree that, other things being equal, grades
are more ‘discerning’ (i.e. informative with regard to the voter’s values) than ranking?
<br>
<br>
K: If other things were equal then sure. Grades also imply rankings, so they could not be worse than rankings, in my view.
<br>
[….]</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">> S: I see that MAM has ‘more mileage’ than Approval (as
you say), but in what way does it have more than MJ? For example, if an MAM voter ranks A>B>C, this does not allow her to express, e.g. whether this means A is Excellent, B is Very Good (or Good, or Acceptable, or Poor), and C is Good (or Acceptable, or Poor,
or Rejected), or A is Acceptable, B is Poor, and C is Rejected, etc. <br>
<br>
K: […] Regarding expressiveness: The MAM voter with A>B>C is not expressing absolute evaluations, but it's more likely it is strategically wise for him to vote that way. If he cares about that, then MAM is *in effect* more expressive, if the alternative would
be that he can evaluate independently but it is strategically unwise to use the full range.
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">S: Please explain exactly why you think that ‘MAM is *in
effect* more expressive’.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Also, how does MAM allow a savvy voter to be ‘more strategically wise’?</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">> […]
<br>
<br>
> K: [….]The method should maximize the odds of finding the best winner by reducing the difference between a sincere and strategic vote. In principle I think we might actually agree on that.
<br>
> S: Yes we seem to agree on this but do you see any method that more efficiently finds ‘the best winner by reducing the difference between a sincere and a strategic vote’ than does MJ? You seem to believe that MJ does not ‘make it in the voter's strategic
interest to express … honest … opinions’. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Please exaplain.</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">[….]<br>
K: [….]<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It all starts with the difficulty of using middle grades as a strategic voter under MJ. I believe this uncertainty will push strategic voters to use mostly the extreme grades. I think this is clearer when you
expect that elections will continue to have frontrunners, and it will seem unsafe to assign them middle grades.
<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>[….] </font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Again, your reasoning behind this key claim is one of the elements I hope to understand as a result of your next post.
<br>
[...] <br>
> K: Whether some people use many of the grades isn't the question here, is it? The question is whether the strategic voter is wrong to think he should exaggerate his grades.
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">> S: He is ‘wrong’ if and when by doing so he is not minimizing
the chances that one of the candidates he honestly evaluates as Rejected will win. For example, he might do this by grading his 1st choice candidate as Excellent but also Rejects all the other candidates he honestly values as either Excellent, Very Good, Good,
or Acceptable. <br>
<br>
K: That situation is possible. <br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="background: white; margin: 0in 0in 7.5pt; line-height: normal; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><font face="Calibri">S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Are you accepting that this strategy would not minimize the chances that his most Rejected candidate will win?<br>
> [….] <br>
<br>
Kevin</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt;"><span style="line-height: 107%; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Calibri">Steve</font></span></p>
<font face="Times New Roman"></font><br>
<p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>