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Re: [EM] (3) Vote-wasting questions: Steve 3rd dialogue with Kristofer<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'></span> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'></span> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>>
From: km_elmet@t-online.de<br>
> Subject: Re: [EM] (2) Vote-wasting questions: Steve 2nd dialogue with
Kristofer<br>
> To: stevebosworth@hotmail.com; election-methods@lists.electorama.com<br>
> Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 01:16:23 +010<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>To
Kristofer and everyone:<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sorry, given your most recent response to our
2<sup>nd</sup> dialogue, I must have failed to make my definition of “wasting
votes” clear.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Mistakenly, you still
believe that APR must waste some votes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Please let me try again.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>In
our 2<sup>nd</sup> dialogue, you had asked me to respond to your suggestions
that APR would waste some votes regardless of which of the follow 2 candidate
might be elected in the following example:<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>K:
> K: > (End of definition.)<br>
> <br>
> E.g. if the candidates are A, B, C, and D, and the ballots are<br>
> 10: A<br>
> 11: C>D<br>
> 12: A>B>C>D<br>
> and the election is for two seats,<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>[…]<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now I want to more fully explain that In this
case, APR would elect A with a “weighted vote” of 22 votes in the legislative
assembly and C with a weighted vote of 11 votes in the assembly, i.e. no votes
wasted.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>A would get 22 “weighted votes” because 11
citizens had ranked A over all the other candidates and 12 had ranked A over
each of the other candidates as specified, i.e. as a result of the 1<sup>st</sup>
count of all the first preferences, it would be discovered that A had received
a total of 22 and C a total of 11.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In
this way, no votes are “wasted” because each of the 33 citizens has both helped
to elect and added their one vote to the elected candidate’s “weighted vote”
each most prefers. <o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>In
my article, I only claim that ‘</span><span class="DefaultParagraphFont1"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">each citizen could<span style="color: rgb(0, 176, 240);"> guarantee
that her one vote will</span> fully continue into the legislative assembly by
giving a ‘weighted vote’ to each elected representative exactly equal to the
number of citizens who had helped to elect him or her’ (Abstract).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If any vote is ‘wasted’ this </span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol;">would ‘result from the
citizen's choice, ignorance, or disability’ (page 4).</span><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I hope this more detailed explanation will
also help you make sense of the following exchanges between us in our 2<sup>nd</sup>
dialogue:<br>
> <br>
K:>> then if the winners are A and B, 11 votes are wasted. <o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>>
11 votes are wasted when the winners are A and B because the C>D ballots<br>
> rank neither A nor B above last, but every other ballot ranks either A<br>
> or B above last.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>S:
>Yes, but in contrast to APR, also the 12 that went to B rather than A would
qualitatively partly be wasted because these 12 citizens preferred their votes
to go to A.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><br>
K:>> if the winners are A and C, no votes are wasted;<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>S:
>Yes, provided that each has the APR weighed votes as explained above.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><br>
K: >> if the winners are A and D, no votes are wasted;<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>S:
>No, in addition to the above wastage, the 11 votes from citizens who
preferred C over D would not be quantitatively wasted but would be
qualitatively partly wasted;<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>K:>>
and 10 votes are wasted when the winners are B and C because the 10 A-only<br>
> ballots rank every candidate but A last.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>S:>
Yes, in this suggestion, the 10 from the citizens who preferred A over all the
other candidates would be entirely wasted (i.e. quantitatively and
qualitatively).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>However, also the 12 who
preferred A over B>C>D would not be quantitatively wasted but would be
qualitatively partly wasted.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>K:>>
Is that correct?<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>S:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>>Yes, partly correct and incorrect as
explained above.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>K:
>> I think I understand what you mean by not wasting votes now.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>S:
No, but perhaps that is my fault.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><br>
K: >> From this point on, all my vote-wasting discussion will be of the
quantitative<br>
> sort unless otherwise specified.<br>
> <br>
> For something like<br>
> <br>
> 10: A>B<br>
> 11: C>B<br>
> 12: D<br>
> <br>
> and two seats, electing A and C wastes votes (12 of them to be exact),<br>
> but electing B and D doesn't.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>S:
No.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>In this case, APR would elect C with
a “weighted vote” of 11 and D with a weighted vote of 12.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The 10 votes given to A would be wasted only
by ordinary IRV using “weighted votes”.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>APR would not waste these 10 because it gives each citizen who fails to
rank any candidate that is elected the option of requiring her 1<sup>st</sup>
choice but eliminated candidate to transfer her one vote to the elected
candidate who that eliminated candidate trusts most (e.g. see the Sample Secret
Ballot at the end of the article). <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>However, perhaps I have never sent you a copy
of my article that systematically explains APR:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>“Equal Voting Sustained”.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">
</span>Separately I will send it to you now and to anyone else who might
request it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Perhaps together with the
above additional explanation, my APR proposal will be clearer?<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>Of
course, I will gladly respond to these or any of the other elements of your
last post to me that you may still believe are not solved by the above. <br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>I
look forward to your next reply.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'>Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri;'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
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