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    Alexander,<br>
    <br>
    I do not know if you would find it real democracy, but SPPA is what
    I have to offer best...<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/9/9/3/9/p199397_index.html">http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/9/9/3/9/p199397_index.html</a><br>
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://votebook.ca/pdf/SPPAforMPSA13042007.pdf">http://votebook.ca/pdf/SPPAforMPSA13042007.pdf</a><br>
    <br>
    Dr Rouillon.<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 2015-07-18 16:41, Alexander
      Praetorius a écrit :<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CADPDqjG44mtEmK9o_rXO1mto439tuQxdU0hJOkxevHG9rFV3LQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
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          <div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 3:18 AM,
            Gervase Lam <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:gervase@madasafish.com" target="_blank">gervase@madasafish.com</a>></span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Alex,<br>
              <br>
              I've been loosely following this thread and had a few
              questions.  As one<br>
              thing that Fred mentions near the start of his reply below
              relates to<br>
              one of my questions, I thought I would ask:-<br>
              <br>
              (1) Do you expect individuals like those who are both deaf
              and blind,<br>
              itinerant gypsies, prisoners, those with dementia or other
              mental<br>
              disability, or a family member who is caring 24 hours a
              day for a<br>
              relative with such illnesses, to set up as their own
              business so that<br>
              they are self employed, which would enable them to have
              their say?<br>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>"REAL DEMOCRACY"</div>
            <div>=> Has people who do stuff (SELLING
              Products/Services)</div>
            <div>=> Has people who decide what people should do
              (BUYING Products/Services)</div>
            <div>If you want to empower people who cannot get elected by
              earning an income through SELLING, then give them votes
              for free (e.g. unconditional basic income or something
              else)</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>The lines above i mention not as a "perfect
              suggestion", but as one example of how to discuss problems
              in the currently existing "REAL DEMOCRACY" and how we
              could brainstorm about how to solve them - instead of
              staying in "FAIRYTALE DEMOCRACY" and brainstorming about
              nonsense that barely affects reality anyway.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div> </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">(2) From
              what I can tell, a large proportion of China consists of
              small<br>
              personal businesses, a good example being sole market
              sellers.  Is this<br>
              a better start for a democracy than what several European
              countries<br>
              have, who are more dependent on big businesses?<br>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>I don't know. Maybe.</div>
            <div>"Real Democracy" is complex and nothing is black and
              white here.</div>
            <div>I have too little information to say if it's better or
              not or if it's better in certain aspects but worse in
              others...</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div> </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <br>
              (3) Every business in the UK needs an external accountant
              to audit the<br>
              business.  Each business must pay for such a compulsory
              "service".  Do<br>
              you expect each self employed individual, whose main aim
              is to have a<br>
              voice in society, to pay for such a "service"?<br>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>I have opened a UK Ltd. company myself and currently
              pay for an accountant.</div>
            <div>It is ok to do the work yourself and the government
              website guides you through the process.</div>
            <div>If you are a very small business, rules are a lot
              simpler and the audit is not required.</div>
            <div>Once you grow large/successful enough for an audit, you
              are able to pay for it.</div>
            <div>=> IN GENERAL: If people would wake up and start
              thinking about the rules that govern "REAL DEMOCRACY" (as
              opposed to "FAIRYTALE DEMOCRACY"), we could brainstorm how
              to simplify bureaucracy and make it more affordable for
              people to become self employed and to grow a healthy
              ecosystem...</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div> </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <br>
              Thanks,<br>
              Gervase.<br>
              <div>
                <div class="h5"><br>
                  On Thu, 2015-07-16 at 14:40 -0400, Fred Gohlke wrote:<br>
                  > Good Afternoon, Alexander<br>
                  ><br>
                  > We know our views differ.  These comments are a
                  different way of looking<br>
                  > at some of the topics you raised.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > To the best of my knowledge, in the so-called
                  'democracies' that<br>
                  > presently exist, votes are cast by human
                  individuals.  I know of no<br>
                  > instance where votes are cast by money.  We know
                  that money can be used<br>
                  > to buy votes but that does not move us closer to
                  democracy than we are<br>
                  > at present.  Quite the reverse.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > Using money to buy hula hoops is certainly one
                  way of voting with money,<br>
                  > but it has drawbacks.  For one, it tends to lead
                  to 'conspicuous<br>
                  > consumption' by those who exploit the system
                  better than their peers.<br>
                  > For another, it is not available to those who
                  need their resources to<br>
                  > feed their families; those who "work for cheap
                  under horrible conditions".<br>
                  ><br>
                  > You say, "The FAKE BULLSHIT (you describe) has to
                  disolve.", but you<br>
                  > don't explain its failings.  I've seen many such
                  assertions, but never<br>
                  > one that provided an explanation of what is wrong
                  with the system or why<br>
                  > it failed.  Without knowing and understanding why
                  it failed, it is<br>
                  > impossible to improve upon it.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > Existing pseudo-democratic political systems fail
                  because they treat the<br>
                  > people like children whose Mommy gives them a
                  choice between Corn Flakes<br>
                  > or Wheaties for breakfast.  Political parties,
                  acting like Mommies, tell<br>
                  > the people what political choices they can make.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > Over the past one hundred years, the explosion of
                  mass communications<br>
                  > and the application of behavioral science have
                  given party politics a<br>
                  > stranglehold on the people.  They have robbed the
                  people of their right<br>
                  > to govern themselves.  Instead, as many have
                  known for years and<br>
                  > researchers at Princeton and Northwestern are
                  starting to learn, even<br>
                  > America has turned into an oligarchy.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/21/americas-oligarchy-not-democracy-or-republic-unive/#ixzz3ftXIhT7n"
                    rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/21/americas-oligarchy-not-democracy-or-republic-unive/#ixzz3ftXIhT7n</a><br>
                  ><br>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div class="h5">> The oligarchs who control the
                  psuedo-democracies maintain their power by<br>
                  > the most basic rule of success:  Divide and
                  Conquer.  In the United<br>
                  > States, they use two political parties to divide
                  the people and control<br>
                  > the government.  Other countries claim to be
                  'more democratic' because<br>
                  > they introduce more parties.  They're not.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > Political parties are divisive by definition. 
                  They do not seek to serve<br>
                  > the common interest; they seek to assert the
                  interests of a select few.<br>
                  >   They do not improve democracy, they empower a
                  relatively radical<br>
                  > portion of the electorate at the expense of the
                  common interest.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > Any system that lets small groups of people
                  decide who can be a<br>
                  > candidate for public office and raise immense
                  amounts of money to peddle<br>
                  > their candidate to the public is flawed.  The
                  only product the parties<br>
                  > have have to sell is the laws their candidates
                  enact and that creates a<br>
                  > conflict of interest that has tragic consequences
                  for the people.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > It need not be so.  There is no shortage of
                  people among us with the wit<br>
                  > and wisdom to resolve adversarial issues in the
                  public interest.  What<br>
                  > we lack is a means of identifying them and
                  raising them to leadership<br>
                  > positions.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > It is unfortunate that the many bright and
                  thoughtful people who post on<br>
                  > this site do not think it worthwhile to help the
                  Frome Town Council find<br>
                  > a way for every member of the community to help
                  decide which of their<br>
                  > peers are the most attuned to the needs of the
                  community and have the<br>
                  > qualities required to advocate the common good.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > Fred Gohlke<br>
                  > ----<br>
                </div>
              </div>
              > Election-Methods mailing list - see <a
                moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://electorama.com/em"
                rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://electorama.com/em</a>
              for list info<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              ----<br>
              Election-Methods mailing list - see <a
                moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://electorama.com/em"
                rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://electorama.com/em</a>
              for list info<br>
            </blockquote>
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          -- <br>
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              <div
                style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><i
style="font-size:small;color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial"><b>DISCLAIMER:</b></i><br
                  style="font-size:small">
                <i
                  style="font-size:small;color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial">Everything
                  I have written above is my personal experience/opinion
                  on things, no matter what kinds of words i did use<br>
                  (e.g. "always", "never", "impossible", "waste of
                  time", ....).<br>
                </i>
                <div style="font-size:small"><font face="arial"
                    color="#500050"><i>Such extreme words only do
                      indicate, that my experience/opinion on something
                      is very strong and i currently cannot imagine that
                      there are other possibilities until new
                      arguments/insights/whatever open my eyes that
                      there are alternative perspectives too :-)<br>
                      <b>Please do not feel discouraged to challenge my
                        opinion if you have a different one.</b></i></font></div>
                <div style="font-size:small"><font face="arial"
                    color="#500050"><i><br>
                    </i></font></div>
                <b>Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen</b></div>
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              <div
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                <div style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">Alexander
                  Praetorius</div>
                <div style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">Bornemannstrasse
                  17</div>
                <div style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">D - 60599
                  Frankfurt am Main</div>
                <div style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">Germany</div>
              </div>
              <div
                style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Germany</div>
              <div
                style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><b>[skype] </b>alexander.praetorius</div>
              <div
                style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><b>[mail] </b><a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:alexander.praetorius@serapath.de"
                  target="_blank">citizen@serapath.de</a></div>
              <div
                style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><b>[web] </b><a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath"
                  target="_blank">http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath</a> </div>
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      <pre wrap="">----
Election-Methods mailing list - see <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://electorama.com/em">http://electorama.com/em</a> for list info
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