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Alexander,<br>
<br>
I do not know if you would find it real democracy, but SPPA is what
I have to offer best...<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/9/9/3/9/p199397_index.html">http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/9/9/3/9/p199397_index.html</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://votebook.ca/pdf/SPPAforMPSA13042007.pdf">http://votebook.ca/pdf/SPPAforMPSA13042007.pdf</a><br>
<br>
Dr Rouillon.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 2015-07-18 16:41, Alexander
Praetorius a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADPDqjG44mtEmK9o_rXO1mto439tuQxdU0hJOkxevHG9rFV3LQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 3:18 AM,
Gervase Lam <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gervase@madasafish.com" target="_blank">gervase@madasafish.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Alex,<br>
<br>
I've been loosely following this thread and had a few
questions. As one<br>
thing that Fred mentions near the start of his reply below
relates to<br>
one of my questions, I thought I would ask:-<br>
<br>
(1) Do you expect individuals like those who are both deaf
and blind,<br>
itinerant gypsies, prisoners, those with dementia or other
mental<br>
disability, or a family member who is caring 24 hours a
day for a<br>
relative with such illnesses, to set up as their own
business so that<br>
they are self employed, which would enable them to have
their say?<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"REAL DEMOCRACY"</div>
<div>=> Has people who do stuff (SELLING
Products/Services)</div>
<div>=> Has people who decide what people should do
(BUYING Products/Services)</div>
<div>If you want to empower people who cannot get elected by
earning an income through SELLING, then give them votes
for free (e.g. unconditional basic income or something
else)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The lines above i mention not as a "perfect
suggestion", but as one example of how to discuss problems
in the currently existing "REAL DEMOCRACY" and how we
could brainstorm about how to solve them - instead of
staying in "FAIRYTALE DEMOCRACY" and brainstorming about
nonsense that barely affects reality anyway.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">(2) From
what I can tell, a large proportion of China consists of
small<br>
personal businesses, a good example being sole market
sellers. Is this<br>
a better start for a democracy than what several European
countries<br>
have, who are more dependent on big businesses?<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't know. Maybe.</div>
<div>"Real Democracy" is complex and nothing is black and
white here.</div>
<div>I have too little information to say if it's better or
not or if it's better in certain aspects but worse in
others...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
(3) Every business in the UK needs an external accountant
to audit the<br>
business. Each business must pay for such a compulsory
"service". Do<br>
you expect each self employed individual, whose main aim
is to have a<br>
voice in society, to pay for such a "service"?<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have opened a UK Ltd. company myself and currently
pay for an accountant.</div>
<div>It is ok to do the work yourself and the government
website guides you through the process.</div>
<div>If you are a very small business, rules are a lot
simpler and the audit is not required.</div>
<div>Once you grow large/successful enough for an audit, you
are able to pay for it.</div>
<div>=> IN GENERAL: If people would wake up and start
thinking about the rules that govern "REAL DEMOCRACY" (as
opposed to "FAIRYTALE DEMOCRACY"), we could brainstorm how
to simplify bureaucracy and make it more affordable for
people to become self employed and to grow a healthy
ecosystem...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Gervase.<br>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
On Thu, 2015-07-16 at 14:40 -0400, Fred Gohlke wrote:<br>
> Good Afternoon, Alexander<br>
><br>
> We know our views differ. These comments are a
different way of looking<br>
> at some of the topics you raised.<br>
><br>
> To the best of my knowledge, in the so-called
'democracies' that<br>
> presently exist, votes are cast by human
individuals. I know of no<br>
> instance where votes are cast by money. We know
that money can be used<br>
> to buy votes but that does not move us closer to
democracy than we are<br>
> at present. Quite the reverse.<br>
><br>
> Using money to buy hula hoops is certainly one
way of voting with money,<br>
> but it has drawbacks. For one, it tends to lead
to 'conspicuous<br>
> consumption' by those who exploit the system
better than their peers.<br>
> For another, it is not available to those who
need their resources to<br>
> feed their families; those who "work for cheap
under horrible conditions".<br>
><br>
> You say, "The FAKE BULLSHIT (you describe) has to
disolve.", but you<br>
> don't explain its failings. I've seen many such
assertions, but never<br>
> one that provided an explanation of what is wrong
with the system or why<br>
> it failed. Without knowing and understanding why
it failed, it is<br>
> impossible to improve upon it.<br>
><br>
> Existing pseudo-democratic political systems fail
because they treat the<br>
> people like children whose Mommy gives them a
choice between Corn Flakes<br>
> or Wheaties for breakfast. Political parties,
acting like Mommies, tell<br>
> the people what political choices they can make.<br>
><br>
> Over the past one hundred years, the explosion of
mass communications<br>
> and the application of behavioral science have
given party politics a<br>
> stranglehold on the people. They have robbed the
people of their right<br>
> to govern themselves. Instead, as many have
known for years and<br>
> researchers at Princeton and Northwestern are
starting to learn, even<br>
> America has turned into an oligarchy.<br>
><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/21/americas-oligarchy-not-democracy-or-republic-unive/#ixzz3ftXIhT7n"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/21/americas-oligarchy-not-democracy-or-republic-unive/#ixzz3ftXIhT7n</a><br>
><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">> The oligarchs who control the
psuedo-democracies maintain their power by<br>
> the most basic rule of success: Divide and
Conquer. In the United<br>
> States, they use two political parties to divide
the people and control<br>
> the government. Other countries claim to be
'more democratic' because<br>
> they introduce more parties. They're not.<br>
><br>
> Political parties are divisive by definition.
They do not seek to serve<br>
> the common interest; they seek to assert the
interests of a select few.<br>
> They do not improve democracy, they empower a
relatively radical<br>
> portion of the electorate at the expense of the
common interest.<br>
><br>
> Any system that lets small groups of people
decide who can be a<br>
> candidate for public office and raise immense
amounts of money to peddle<br>
> their candidate to the public is flawed. The
only product the parties<br>
> have have to sell is the laws their candidates
enact and that creates a<br>
> conflict of interest that has tragic consequences
for the people.<br>
><br>
> It need not be so. There is no shortage of
people among us with the wit<br>
> and wisdom to resolve adversarial issues in the
public interest. What<br>
> we lack is a means of identifying them and
raising them to leadership<br>
> positions.<br>
><br>
> It is unfortunate that the many bright and
thoughtful people who post on<br>
> this site do not think it worthwhile to help the
Frome Town Council find<br>
> a way for every member of the community to help
decide which of their<br>
> peers are the most attuned to the needs of the
community and have the<br>
> qualities required to advocate the common good.<br>
><br>
> Fred Gohlke<br>
> ----<br>
</div>
</div>
> Election-Methods mailing list - see <a
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://electorama.com/em</a>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><i
style="font-size:small;color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial"><b>DISCLAIMER:</b></i><br
style="font-size:small">
<i
style="font-size:small;color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial">Everything
I have written above is my personal experience/opinion
on things, no matter what kinds of words i did use<br>
(e.g. "always", "never", "impossible", "waste of
time", ....).<br>
</i>
<div style="font-size:small"><font face="arial"
color="#500050"><i>Such extreme words only do
indicate, that my experience/opinion on something
is very strong and i currently cannot imagine that
there are other possibilities until new
arguments/insights/whatever open my eyes that
there are alternative perspectives too :-)<br>
<b>Please do not feel discouraged to challenge my
opinion if you have a different one.</b></i></font></div>
<div style="font-size:small"><font face="arial"
color="#500050"><i><br>
</i></font></div>
<b>Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen</b></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif">***********************************************</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif">
<div style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">Alexander
Praetorius</div>
<div style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">Bornemannstrasse
17</div>
<div style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">D - 60599
Frankfurt am Main</div>
<div style="font-size:small;font-family:arial">Germany</div>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Germany</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><b>[skype] </b>alexander.praetorius</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><b>[mail] </b><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:alexander.praetorius@serapath.de"
target="_blank">citizen@serapath.de</a></div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><b>[web] </b><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath"
target="_blank">http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath</a> </div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif">***********************************************</div>
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